anonniemouse: (Default)
anonniemouse ([personal profile] anonniemouse) wrote in [community profile] tf_talk2015-04-09 12:58 pm

continued Thatfucker discussion

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

Thanfiction's purged journal roundup - THIS shit is why it was deleted.

(Anonymous) 2016-04-25 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Andy's Oirish grandfather invokes every Oirish cliche ever, in court, to a thunderous round of applause. Does everything but whip out his Lucky Charms:

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=960856#cmt960856

Another mention of His Son; A Sparrow, whose loss the deepest blow Andy ever suffered:

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=961368#cmt961368

Andy explains DAYD will protect teenage girls from predators (lol) and recommends someone send the link to an actual teenager (thereby connecting her to an actual sexual predator):

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=961880#cmt961880

Andy begs women on his flist to allow him to rub their neck "in a non-sexual" way in exchange for fic or food, after producing a screed of sexual prose so purple it needs ice. Explains he won't have casual sex for fear of impregnating a woman:

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=962136#cmt962136

Andy drops breadcrumbs about HP characters being real people:

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=962648#cmt962648

Andy explains why JKR killing off minor HP characters without much fuss is actually dehumanization, the root of all human rights abuses. Invokes Rosa Parks, Matthew Shepherd, and Anne Frank. Compares this to people dismissing starving children in Africa:

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=962904#cmt962904

Andy on why you need a fandom will - not as bad the rest, but notable considering I think he had "less than a year to live!" at the time:

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=963416#cmt963416

Andy argues with Luvscharlie and another LJ user about who was sending Luvscharlie harassing messages, ending his friendship with both of them.

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=963672#cmt963672

Re: Thanfiction's purged journal roundup - THIS shit is why it was deleted.

(Anonymous) 2016-04-26 02:15 am (UTC)(link)
Were all these posts previously friends locked? How come they can be seen now?

(Anonymous) 2016-04-25 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Me age, me health, that I were angry, that I’d started a new medicine, pleading me out of me head,

My, my. What an interesting list of excuses.

(Anonymous) 2016-04-25 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I think we can safely conclude that all Andy's little stories that play on ethical stereotypes (COM-PA-SHUN, summoning Shaitan, Pimp Nick Fury) are all complete bullshit at this point.

I mean, we could before, but THIS post... wow. People believed this shit.

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(Anonymous) 2016-04-26 04:21 am (UTC)(link)
Andy begs women on his flist to allow him to rub their neck "in a non-sexual" way in exchange for fic or food, after producing a screed of sexual prose so purple it needs ice. Explains he won't have casual sex for fear of impregnating a woman:

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=962136#cmt962136

There is not a level on which this is not really, really creepy.

(Anonymous) 2016-04-26 02:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Ugh, that post was so creepy. There was also another one a bit later where he whinged about how he broke his promise to himself about not having casual sex, going onto describe in yet more purple prose about banging some hot chick on his kitchen floor. I can't find that one on the WayBack Machine, but it was such an obvious attempt to get attention (and maybe make someone jealous at the same time?) and unbelievably creepy.

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Andy (then Jordan) proposes to Abbey via a phone call from Sea Astin

(Anonymous) 2016-04-26 06:03 pm (UTC)(link)
https://sendvid.com/9aq8z1t1

Re: Andy (then Jordan) proposes to Abbey via a phone call from Sea Astin

(Anonymous) 2016-04-29 05:15 am (UTC)(link)
any of the stuff involving sean astin makes me so secondhand embarrassed, he's clearly uncomfortable to be involved

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Changing Names

(Anonymous) 2016-04-27 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I have heard that when he was preparing to move out to live with Brittany and her husband, he planned to change his name again and assume a new identity. His new name? Michael Connor. (Make of *that* name what you will.)

Can any nonnies confirm this?

Re: Changing Names

(Anonymous) 2016-04-28 01:10 am (UTC)(link)
Almost right nonnie: it was going to be Michael Corner, after one of his pretty-boy genius DAYDian characters. Michael is also Andy's current middle name, I think after his father? So Michael would have worked as a possible replacement name.

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(Anonymous) 2016-04-29 02:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I wonder if the Bucky Brigade people are aware of who Andy is, or if they're quietly baffled by the attention whoring?

(Anonymous) 2016-04-29 03:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Even if they know, Andy seems adept at convincing his new groups of friends/followers that although he "fucked up" in the past, it's all behind him now. He was sick and vulnerable and taken advantage of and it was really hard on him, ok?

http://65.media.tumblr.com/89af25a214ca11815254c4dcfb92d8c5/tumblr_n6oaqhQiBm1r78rito1_1280.jpg

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Claims of sex work.

(Anonymous) 2016-05-05 07:13 am (UTC)(link)
I've seen mention of Andy making claims of having a history of sex work. As a sex worker, I'm pretty interested in how credible they are and what he has said about it. Could anyone point me to it?

I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if he was being honest here. He's had a lot of instability in his life and all kinds of sex work are a really accessible and fast way to get money. But I know he has a weird history of working things like sex trafficking into his narratives (like the child prostitute) so I'm fairly wary.

Re: Claims of sex work.

(Anonymous) 2016-05-05 10:03 am (UTC)(link)
Turimel's entry on "Ciyarra, the child prostitute":

http://turimel.livejournal.com/82072.html

If I recall correctly, Abbey said that Andy once did a photo shoot that possibly involved some nudity. I think that was all she knew about any work he had done that even touch on sexual. For a while, he was hinting around SPN fandom about his sex work. I think, on questioning, he claimed to have worked as a phone sex operator, but I might be remembering that wrong.

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(Anonymous) 2016-06-15 02:13 am (UTC)(link)
Please tell me that Andy is hiding under his rock and not using the Pulse shooting to further his agenda.

(Anonymous) 2016-06-16 12:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Andy has used Pulse a little bit the way he likes to use any current issue. It didn't seem terribly remarkable to me, honestly--not that the shooting isn't tragic and not that it isn't disgusting to use it this way, but in that he hasn't really deviated much from his usual behavior or done anything very unexpected run him.

Mostly he's just been really emphatic about what "real Christians" and Jesus would do, etc, and doing that thing again where he brags a lot about having both conservative and liberal friends as though this makes him special.

If people are really curious, I can try to make a post on it soon, but at the moment I'm mostly getting absurd overtime so it would have to wait until I have a day off.

Watch.

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Winjennster says Andy hasn't changed

(Anonymous) 2016-07-15 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
From her reblog of one of Abbey's posts:

The problem is, he’s back to his old tricks, he just moved them to Facebook. He’s collecting cosplayers now and running his mouth about BLM conspiracy theories. Same shit, different day.

Does anyone have any more information about this? Is Watchful still here?

Re: Winjennster says Andy hasn't changed

(Anonymous) 2016-07-15 03:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Is this recent? Do you have a link to the reblog?

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(Anonymous) 2016-08-05 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)
So has Andy popped up in Stranger Things fandom yet? It has a bunch of his ...interests.

(Anonymous) 2016-08-06 08:17 am (UTC)(link)
lol.

GISHWHES

(Anonymous) 2016-08-12 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Does anyone know if Andy took part in GISHWHES this year?

Re: GISHWHES

(Anonymous) 2016-08-14 04:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think Andy did GISHWHES. He was at a very, very, very demanding internship for most of the summer--despite his tendency to exaggerate things, I have had relatives who have had theater internships, and they really are as grueling as he claimed his was. So I don't think he had time for GISHWHES, and he made no mention of it as far as I have seen.

Watch.

New post from watchfulnonny about Andy and PTSD

(Anonymous) 2016-08-16 08:34 pm (UTC)(link)
CW: Brittany's death, gun violence mention (non graphic)

http://watchfulnonny.tumblr.com/post/149037170737/my-apologies-the-posts-in-question-i-want-to

Basically, he's had a couple of PTSD episodes related to Brittany's murder (which is completely understandable). But he's gone on to do things like post about self-medicating with alcohol on the 4th of July to deal with fireworks going off and if he claimed to have the level of mental health care he does, he wouldn't be doing things like that.

(Mod, I apologize if this belongs in the Gloves off post. Please move it if you think it belongs there.)

Re: New post from watchfulnonny about Andy and PTSD

(Anonymous) 2016-08-16 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll leave it for now, but let's keep an eye on the discourse as Brittany talk is always fraught!

- mod, too lazy to log in

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DragonCon 2016

(Anonymous) 2016-08-24 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)
So does anyone know if thatfucker is going to make an appearance?

(Anonymous) 2016-09-03 12:47 am (UTC)(link)
I heard a rumor that Andrew adopted a cat. I hope this isn't true...I thought he had a history of animal abuse (a hamster if I remember correctly?)

(Anonymous) 2016-09-05 06:17 am (UTC)(link)
He let a friends's rabbit starve/die of thirst, let his own pet mouse starve/die of thirst, and threatened to kill Boo (his son, a sparrow) in order to control Abbey, if I'm not mistaken.

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Fall update.

(Anonymous) 2016-09-06 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Internship over, Andy got a place with Meg and they have adopted two kittens. Considering his weird history with her, not all of which is public, this doesn't seem very advisable, especially considering the previous posts about his animal abuse. She has written at length about having issues with her feelings for him and her codependency, which makes all his gleeful posts about "platonic cuddles" with her even weirder to read. They've joked that if they got a cat together, they would never want to separate because it would be too painful for them to get attached to a cat and then go their separate ways, so it looks like she's in this for the long haul now. I believe they said it would "be a marriage proposal."

So things are still weird between them, but they're both much quieter about it.

He also had issues with school registration because he withdrew medically and ended up asking his parents for a large amount of money in order to attend classes. I believe they had to take out a loan to make it work.

Very unnerving.

Re: Fall update.

(Anonymous) 2016-09-06 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)
This supposed "platonic" crap Andy's pulling on Meg is incredibly abusive. It's like what Rayford Steele does to Hattie Durham in the Left Behind books, as Fred Clark talks about a lot, particularly in these two posts:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2003/10/18/left-behind-pretrib-porno/
"Throughout the book, Rayford keeps Hattie in her place — waiting for signals from him, but always withholding those signals. The authors seem to regard this as a sign of Steele's virtue and self control, but it reads more like something deeply kinked and cruel. He gets off on this."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2007/12/14/lb-cruel-to-b-1/
"The authors would have us believe that Rayford has gone from pursuing Hattie’s body to pursuing her soul, but that’s just not true. He’s been after her soul all along."

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Check Yourself

(Anonymous) 2016-09-10 12:35 am (UTC)(link)
Hey, this is Meg. This is a one-time post. I'm not responding to anyone on here, only stating a point where anyone fairly invested in all of this will see it. (Not everyone goes on tumblr, so here we are.)

I'm not even going to address the standard discussions surrounding Andy's actions and how he may or may not be treating me or anyone else in his circle. A word from me won't change that, because I'm his victim, in your eyes, which puts me firmly under his influence. I'm here to address, mostly, two things.

One: the kittens. I don't care how close Andy and I are, or how close he is to those cats. I grew up with cats my entire life, and have I love them to death and am incredibly caring and loving to any cats under my possession. These two are no different. They were adopted in my name, and it was agreed that they are to stay together (they're siblings and very bonded), and if we were to move apart, I will take the cats. I won't let it be any other way. Cats are rather self-sustaining after you give them the necessities they need. I am home often enough that even if Andy weren't around, I could care for them just fine, and give them plenty of love and attention and supervision. I am looking after their medical records. I keep their litter box clean, and their food and water full. Andy being around will change none of that.

Two: There are things that have been mentioned on this forum that indicate whoever is invading our privacy to give details to everyone here is either a closer friend than I initially thought, or they're a damn good guesser, because certain things here were never said publicly. (Let's not get into the fact that posting things from Andy's facebook is already a terribly invasive thing to do in the first place.) And then there's that anon that specifically stated, "I'm in contact with both Andy and Meg."

I'm so used to you guys invading Andy's privacy and speculating and gossiping and coming to your own incomplete opinions that I hardly bat an eye at it when I see it. But the fact of the matter is, you guys supposedly have respect and sympathy for those around him, and yet you invade their privacy too. I don't need you guys talking about where I work or what my hours are. You certainly have no right to speculate about his parents.

As I was saying, somebody here appears to have come out as a closer friend of ours (or even more mine, than Andy's) than either of us originally expected. I will repeat: there are details being discussed here that have been discussed with NO MORE than 7 people, Andy and I not included. That's a narrow pool, unless you made a very lucky guess. And that fucks so heavily with my already tenuous trust and abandonment issues that I no longer feel like I can talk to anyone about anything personal other than Andy himself and his parents. What I'm saying is, for a group who cares so dearly about my wellbeing as a victim, you sure did a damn good job of pushing me further towards the abuser.

If this wasn't some really, really good guesswork on behalf of the anon who is apparently friends with both Andy and I, I would like to actually discuss this with you. Because you are apparently close enough for us to trust you with fairly personal information. And if you're that close, than you must be seeing something that I'm missing. And I've always been open to talking to people who aren't anonymous. If this wasn't some really good guesswork, I assume you're friends with me on facebook, and I invite you to message me there so we can talk it out. Otherwise, it's only safe to assume that I can't talk to ANYBODY for fear of it getting back here.

If there are public sources for the information gathered here, feel free to post it.

And don't shoot back with the same crap about how I don't have to come here to subject myself to this if I don't want to. This is a public forum, and it makes me feel very uncomfortable and unsafe to know that there are people out there talking so thoroughly about my personal life. I'm not a celebrity and I don't want my personal business broadcast where anyone can see it. And once again, don't expect a response on here. Anyone is welcome to message me on facebook, tumblr, or via email.

Re: Check Yourself

(Anonymous) 2016-09-10 03:04 am (UTC)(link)
I know you said you won't reply, but I assume you check here. You are very devoted to Andy, so I didn't have much hope of influencing you, and decided that the best I could do was let the Internet at large know nothing has changed. If I could be certain my identity would never get around to Andy, I might, but I don't think that's a guarantee you can give me or the other people on here posting about these things.

I think this post indicates I should duck out of posting information on here. I was concerned about Andy's activities, but it seems like those of us posting about his private activities on here have gone too far, and I had no intention to impact you negatively. I hope other anons will too, or at least think more carefully.

Please be careful of starting a witch-hunt. I was not the only one posting things that were not on Facebook on here, so there are multiple people. I will back off, but it doesn't seem like it would benefit anyone to start some kind of Spanish Inquisition. I worry about what that could do to your mental health.

Be well.

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Ryan Buell

(Anonymous) 2016-09-21 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
http://abc11.com/1520780/

Something about this story reminds me of Than. Particularly "but the shows got postponed and then canceled and fans were left with no answers and looking for refunds. Fans were out hundreds of dollars and wanted their money back. Many of them never got a dime back. Some were able to get refunds by disputing the charge with their credit card company."

And the remarks from his mother are telling. ""PLEASE stop enabling his situation by sending money, buying tickets to events that may never occur, buying merchandise/phone calls you may never get, paying money to watch him on Twitch, and giving him offers of shelter ... I am pleading with you out of LOVE for my son and I'm frightened by what his situation has become."

Fans and one-time fans quickly commented on Buell's mother's post. Some defending Buell, others saying how Buell has taken money from them too. One fan talking about how Buell was sick, and his mom writes, "He's ill, but not from cancer. His family knows the REAL story. You all need to stop believing his lies and stop enabling him....PLEASE."
"

Re: Ryan Buell

(Anonymous) 2016-09-22 12:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow. It shows to what heights Andy's malarky could have gone.

But he seems happy with his 'inner circle' and making it us against the evil them (which is us by the way). My concern is with those he is gaslighting now and what happens to them once they sort out what is happening to them.

I lost my best friend to lies and deception not quite to an Andy Blake level but still lost some serious money and a lot of dignity defending them to my other friends for years. Those friends could see what was happening and I felt six kinds of the idiot for not seeing it until the whole thing blew up in my face.

Now I have serious trust issues which has made it hard for me to deal with people on any level.

It feels so good to have someone tell you that you are the only person that they really trust and you are part of the inner circle of the group. A chosen one as it where. Makes you feel special until something happens and then you realize it was all an illusion and you are left with a rather foul taste in your mouth .

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'Holy Hell' Documentary

(Anonymous) 2016-10-07 02:30 am (UTC)(link)
I just got done watching the documentary 'Holy Hell' on Netflix, about a cult that lasted for over 20 years before it started falling apart, made BY former victims of the cult. It's a harrowing watch, but what struck me was how so many of the events line up so closely to Abbey's story. Up to and including the fact that the cult leader depicted went off and created another cult, just like Andy did.

If anything, it's worth a watch just to see how so many cults are really just different variations on the exact same theme.

Re: 'Holy Hell' Documentary

(Anonymous) 2016-10-10 01:29 am (UTC)(link)
Oh yeah. I mean, just in online circles, I've seen people pull the exact same narrative as Blake has. For instance, one guy I'm looking up, it's uncanny. He started doing his shit in the late 90s, got ran off a Usenet group for grooming a teenage girl, started a succession of fandom cults, and now he's moved to Facebook, claiming to be an Avengers character and hocking cosplay materials for money.

And yet, far as I can tell, this guy has NEVER HEARD of Blake. I'm pretty certain Blake's never heard of him. They're totally unrelated, just moving in parallel.

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So im an acquaintance that was giving him the benefit of the doubt...

(Anonymous) 2016-10-13 03:32 am (UTC)(link)
But this shit makes it REAL HARD. http://s38.photobucket.com/user/doreenofthegreen/media/Screenshot%202_zpsqil5zhpz.png.html?o=0

I think I'm done. After reading this thread (and others) and then reading this post...it gave me a sinking sick feeling.

Boasting about this shit is NOT OK.

Re: So im an acquaintance that was giving him the benefit of the doubt...

(Anonymous) 2016-10-13 12:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure which is the worst part:

a) the smugness of the implied, "my cons were flawless and worked great and got me exactly what I wanted, unlike these amateurs," with no remorse for his abusive actions

b) the blatant lie that he "had to" do all that "just to survive"

c) the fact that he's too caught up in his own ego to see that the IRS phone and e-mail scams actually fool a lot of people, especially the elderly, and lives have been ruined by them

or

d) maybe he does see that and just doesn't care--after all, he's repeatedly implied that his own targets (especially Abbey) somehow deserved what he did to them, or were complicit in their abuse.

Possible future fandoms

(Anonymous) 2016-10-13 05:50 am (UTC)(link)
I know he's expressed interest in superheroes in the past - has Andy ever shown any interest in Deadpool? Badass mercenary with a troubled and convoluted past and an *unconventional* mental state could be up his alley, but it might be too silly for him.

Re: Possible future fandoms

(Anonymous) 2016-10-13 01:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Not yet. Not really his demographic as the deadpool fans tend to be male.

Now Dr. Strange worries the ever loving out of me.

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Wash, Rinse, Repeat

(Anonymous) 2016-10-15 05:12 pm (UTC)(link)
OK so we know the MO for thatfucker.

Has he learned anything along the way? Or is this a case of arrested development and he's alway going to be a man-child living off the kindness of others?

Consider that his parents had to pay to get him back into school because he HAD to have his surgery right then so their money is the only reason he is still in school if he is still in school.

Yes, he moved out of his folks house yet again but I am betting that others are paying the rent because he is in school.

I am a little surprised that he hasn't tried to sell his prop/costuming building skills to make some money since I know a number of theater students who use that as a decent sideline. I have no idea how good his skills are.

My bigger concern is how soon is he going to get bored and decide he needs some more drama in his life. He seems to cycle on this and he'd due.

Re: Wash, Rinse, Repeat

(Anonymous) 2016-10-17 02:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Has he learned anything along the way?

He mainly seems to learn more effective ways to use and manipulate people.

Or is this a case of arrested development and he's alway going to be a man-child living off the kindness of others?

I don't know that I'd call it arrested development. I think that Andy is capable of choosing to be honest and not manipulative, of working to pay his own bills (perhaps less so when he's in school full-time), and of having friendships that don't involve sick emotional games. He may need to work closely with a therapist for support in some of that, but he can do it. He has chosen not to, consistently, for many years now. So as for the second part, yes, I think he will probably always be a man-child living off the kindness of others and trumpeting "how far he's come" while he does it.

I am a little surprised that he hasn't tried to sell his prop/costuming building skills to make some money since I know a number of theater students who use that as a decent sideline. I have no idea how good his skills are.

Andy has done costume commissions for friends, and quite a few for a child with a disability (whom he basically treats as inspiration porn). I imagine that he would have done even more, but he usually wants money right away, and he tends to get more takers with OMG CRISIS EMERGENCY MUST SELL NOW NOW NOW!!! That tends to work better with things that he's already made or that are just part of a costume--a cloak, a prop, some embroidery on an existing piece.

His skills are good, but the last time I got a close look at something he'd made, they were not at the level he thought they were. From what other cosplayers and professionals have shared with me, his work usually is not as technically challenging and impressive as he makes it out to be. It's also not as screen-accurate as he has previously claimed. Sometimes he's just flat-out wrong about how to achieve certain effects, too, such as the wear on his Viserys costume. As of last year, he took pride in working extremely fast and in using hot glue for everything other than sewing, and that only gets you so far. I assume that he's learned new techniques in school/his internship, but he doesn't share much publicly, so it's hard to say.

I saw a while ago on Facebook that he was trying to sell a serger and needed cash immediately, so maybe that was an attempt to help with the rent? He was drastically exaggerating its value as a used item, though (he wanted $750 and said it was "worth well over twice that"...only if it were brand new). I don't know whether anyone bought it. I've seen the same model, with manual and accessories, go for about $500 on Craigslist and eBay.

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(Anonymous) 2016-10-29 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Not your fault that mayo humans look so much alike already that it doesn't take much to make us look like completely different mayo humans.

Ugh.

(Anonymous) 2016-10-30 01:46 am (UTC)(link)
I just googled that phrase because I figured I'd find the post you were referring to and istg this is what came up: http://imgur.com/KmvyM8H

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(Anonymous) 2016-11-02 03:31 am (UTC)(link)
The big question - is Andy going to vote? Is he going to let Meg vote? And how is he goto use this election to further his own sick goals?

-KQ

(Anonymous) 2016-11-02 08:27 pm (UTC)(link)
My best guess: Demonize Trump voters to make himself appear more virtuous and enlightened than he really is; continue to mock and distance himself from "non-woke" "mayo" people; rep BLM hard on facebook as a form of easy virtue-signalling with little to no effort required.

Rinse and repeat.

Disclaimer: Am not a Trump voter.

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(screened comment)

(frozen comment) Re: Sexual dysphoria sexual dysfunction?

(Anonymous) 2016-11-09 05:48 am (UTC)(link)
I really don't think this is at all appropriate to discuss. Veers further into speculation than is already done here, and is incredibly invasive.

Mods?

Relevent

(Anonymous) 2016-11-11 03:27 am (UTC)(link)
https://afternarcissisticabuse.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/602/

Cliff notes:

FALSE VICTIM vs. TRUE VICTIM

1. FLAT AFFECT
2. BRILLIANT USE OF WORDS, DESCRIPTIONS and PHRASES. Suspiciouly Articulate.
3. LACK OF CHANGES IN BEHAVIOR, PERSONALITY OR LIFESTYLE
4. FALSE VICTIMS DON’T QUESTION THEMSELVES, THEY PROJECT ARROGANCE

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