tf_talk | Gloves Off

NAYRT

he not a self-loathing woman lying about being a man

If you want to get really technical, then we don't actually KNOW that. The only person who knows whether this is true or not is Andy himself. We all BELIEVE he is truly trans because unlike everything else he's ever said, this is the one point where he's never done anything to make us think otherwise.

I also personally believe that Andy being trans and having been forced to grow up as a girl, is at least one of the reasons - if not the main or even only one - why he hates cis women so much.

That's the False Self/True Self theory currently used to explain the behavior of people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. For whatever reason, they take to hating their True Self very early on (during childhood), so they squash it deep inside themselves and try to hide it forever. To compensate for this self-hatred, they develop a larger-than-life False Self: someone brilliant, exceptional, perfect, better than everyone else, and thus in their mind unavoidably admirable and lovable. They hate themselves, but they'll make damn sure everyone else will love/admire them. This outer False Self adapts to its environment as the Narcissist moves through life, but always remains rooted in the hatred of the True Self. And then of course, the more they deny their True Self and indulge in grandiose fantasies through their False Self, the more detached the Narcissists become from themselves, and the less they become able to heal whatever wound made them hate themselves in the first place. Under this theory, some fear that by the time they are adults, Narcissists are already too far gone to be helped, which is extremely depressing to think about, but unfortunately seems to be supported by the collected facts so far.

If you want to get really technical

I don't. I don't see the value in holding trans people's identification up to that level of scrutiny. And yes, after a decade of debates on the matter, that also includes Andy.

If I wanted to be that pedantic, I'd just throw my hands up and declare we can't truly know anyone's real gender.

I don't see the value in holding trans people's identification up to that level of scrutiny.

In that case, you should call Andy cis, because that's what he claims to be: a cis man born with a female body and assigned female at birth. Andy very loudly does NOT identify as trans, so by your own reasoning, you should not consider him trans.

I also don't see why his (non-)claim of being trans shouldn't be held to the same scrutiny as, for example, his past claim of being a child abuse survivor, or his current claim of having schizophrenia. He is wildly disbelieved on both accounts, so why should he automatically be believed on his (non-)claim of being trans? He shouldn't, in my opinion. The reason he IS believed is not because claims of being trans are somehow special. It's because this one claim holds up even when held to the closest scrutiny, unlike the other two.

So yes, I believe Andy is trans - but certainly not because he claims so.

da

The reason his identity doesn't need to be held to such scrutiny is because it brings nothing to the discussion except for people talking about what is or isn't a valid trans experience. And that is ultimately NOT productive and it is also potentially harmful to other trans people involved in the discussion. The only person who has made such an issue about his identity is Turimel and... does anyone else actually want to sound like her on the issue?

His identity is ultimately not the problem here and out of respect for other transpeople its better left off the table.

+1

nayrt

a cis man born with a female body and assigned female at birth

This is a contradiction in terms. A cisgender person's identity aligns with their birth gender. The identity you described does not exist. It's like describing an atheist who faithfully worships and believes in God.

This is really interesting nonny! Thank you for posting it.

In that case, you should call Andy cis, because that's what he claims to be: a cis man born with a female body and assigned female at birth. Andy very loudly does NOT identify as trans, so by your own reasoning, you should not consider him trans.

I'm referring to trans people's internal identities as men or women, not Andy's repeated claims of being cisgender, which are easily disprovable nonsense and a completely different issue.

I can't agree. His gender identity matters, because it influences the lies he tells and the manipulation he does. Just look at what that anon said about his gender dysphoria being the cause of his hygiene troubles. He blames these troubles on schizoprenia these days, he uses them as ammunition to fuel his false claim that he's got schizophrenia, but according to that anon, it's likely born from gender dysphoria instead. That's an important difference.

The only person who has made such an issue about his identity is Turimel

No. There's someone else who made an even bigger issue of it. Someone who used it to abuse people and reject responsibility for their past horrible actions. Andy tried as hard as he could to deny that he was ever Amy Player so he wouldn't have to shoulder the responsibility for his past abuse. And then when he couldn't avoid it anymore, he tried to get people to pity him for suffering from the worst case of gender dysphoria ever, once again to avoid having to deal with his past actions. This is important too.

It's Andy who chose to use his identity as a trans man to abuse people. From there, said identity cannot be ignored anymore. Which is not to say that I think it should be *denied*, not at all. He's trans, part of his abusive behavior probably comes from the fact that he's trans, and he's using the fact that he's trans to better abuse people. It all matters.

I agree with you, but Andy disagrees with us. He's the one who wrote a long post explaining that he's just what I described: a cis man, who was born with a female body and was raised as a girl. He's the one who denies being trans, not me.

This thread, this discussion, this entire community, are about Andy, not about trans people in general. This thread's OP was talking about Andy, not about any other trans person. If you agree that Andy's trans identity cannot be discussed in the same terms as other random trans people's identity, then could you please not bring up other trans people when only Andy is being discussed?

Yes, I totally agree, for other trans people, things are generally like this or like that. But they are starkly different for Andy, if only because he has never claimed to be trans in the first place. So let's stop bringing up other trans people, because this systematically derails the conversation from its topic: Andy.

Sorry but I don't agree. Bringing his identity into question doesn't seem productive to me. No matter whether he identifies as trans or not he is a man. He is an abusive man, yes, but he is a man and that's all there is to say about it. Turimel believed that his male persona was a scam but it's easy to see that it isn't true, that while Andy is a lying liar who has lied about many many numerous things his being a man doesn't seem to be one of them. And he would be an abuser whether trans or not so it just doesn't seem relevant.

Bringing his identity into question doesn't seem productive to me.

I'm not talking about *questioning* his identity. As both you and I said, it's damn obvious that he's a trans man, even if he cannot bring himself to face that fact. I'm only talking about not shying away from *considering* his identity as a self-denying trans man when it's relevant to the abuse he's committing.

he is a man and that's all there is to say about it

I really can't agree with that. He's a trans man, and both parts of this identity play a heavy role in his abusive ways.

he would be an abuser whether trans or not so it just doesn't seem relevant.

It's highly relevant because he made it highly relevant by using his being a trans man to abuse people and to deny his abusive past. If he had never used his being trans to do anything wrong, then I would agree that it's irrelevant. But since he's repeatedly used his being trans to lie, hide, and abuse people, it's become very much relevant.

I'll be honest: I don't even understand how we can still be discussing this. How can something he's repeatedly used to hide and to abuse people NOT be relevant when discussing his lies and abuse?? What does "relevant" even mean then, if not "something directly related to the topic being discussed"? What DO you consider relevant when discussing Andy Blake's abuse and lies, and why, if something he's used so much and so often to nefarious ends isn't relevant to you?

But they are starkly different for Andy, if only because he has never claimed to be trans in the first place.

This is incorrect. Andy has claimed a trans identity in the past, and then jettisoned it when he decided to start over and deny any connection to Amy Player's activities.

If you agree that Andy's trans identity cannot be discussed in the same terms as other random trans people's identity, then could you please not bring up other trans people when only Andy is being discussed?

The statement I took issue with is that "We cannot know for sure Andy isn't a woman lying about being a man. Only Andy knows this."

Whether that poster intended it or not, this is wank bait, and any reasonable person accepts that Andy's gender identity is male at this point. To harp on about how we can never really be sure if this is true is unproductive and, in my opinion, dishonest, because things like people's gender identity don't require absolute certainty to be accepted, even in Andy's case. It's certainly not a standard we apply to much anything else. Even KQ accepts that Andy's identity as male is not a lie, manipulation or a put-on.

His male identity is distinct from his claims of being cisgender/not trans, which are A) easily disproven, and B) nonsensical.

You're confusing the issue. The post people had a problem with wasn't about Andy lying about being trans, but about us "not being 100% sure" if Andy isn't a woman lying about being a man.

Apples and oranges.

NA

That's related but different can of worms. I think you're confused about what's being discussed.

The post people had a problem with wasn't about Andy lying about being trans, but about us "not being 100% sure" if Andy isn't a woman lying about being a man.

There's literally no post in this thread saying that, so what are you talking about??

Andy is a trans man. Andy denies being trans, even while describing himself as exactly what is meant by "trans man". What am I confused about exactly?

This is incorrect. Andy has claimed a trans identity in the past, and then jettisoned it when he decided to start over and deny any connection to Amy Player's activities.

I'm going to have to call for evidence here, because I am not aware of ANY time when Andy claimed a trans identity. He was already calling himself a cis man back when he was still Jordan Wood living with Abbey, making her write about his very real penis which she held every day.

The statement I took issue with is that "We cannot know for sure Andy isn't a woman lying about being a man. Only Andy knows this."

But this statement was NEVER made in this entire thread! I'm serious: link me to the comment where this statement is made.

Whether that poster intended it or not, this is wank bait, and any reasonable person accepts that Andy's gender identity is male at this point.

It's only wank-bait *in your head*, precisely because as I keep repeating and you explain here, EVERYONE accepts that Andy is trans (except Andy himself). YOU are the one who saw someone mentioning his being trans and jumped to "WANK BAIT!" when there was no such thing.

To harp on about how we can never really be sure if this is true

But. Nobody. Is. Doing. This. In. This. Thread. Dammit!

His male identity is distinct from his claims of being cisgender/not trans, which are A) easily disproven, and B) nonsensical.

How can his male identity be distinct from his trans status when his male identity is BORN from the fact that he's trans in the first place?? He wouldn't be male if he weren't trans, and he's trans because he's male. The two go together. You can't argue that we should take his word regarding one thing but dismiss it regarding the other. Either we fully take him at his word, and we accept that he's a cis man, or we fully distrust his word and judge for ourselves what he is. I'm definitely doing the latter: I don't believe a single word of what he says. Instead, I look at what he repeatedly does, and make my own mind up from there. And what he repeatedly does is act like a trans man, so I conclude on my own that he must be a trans man. I hope it's the same for you and everyone else, because believing *anything* he says simply because he says it is even more than stupid: it's dangerous.

Very nicely written Nonnie and a good summation of the problem of talking about this issue.

Kudos to you.

NA

I have no investment in this particular discussion, but I want to point something out:

I am not aware of ANY time when Andy claimed a trans identity.

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=33624#cmt33624

"I have re-connected with my family, moved away from Hollywood, have and intend to have in the future no contact with any fandom of any kind, re-discovered God, changed my name, come to terms with myself as a transgender man, and am now seeking both gender reassignment surgery, normal employment, and a normal, healthy life."

"I was a passionate Star Trek fan, and the idea that I might be transgender had not yet even vaguely occurred to me."

"As Elijah, I tried to deal with the 'terrible situation' of being split off from myself and trapped in a girl's body (the closest I had yet come to confronting being transgender, as the only other exposure I had to the concept was MsAllegro, who sets off every NO alarm in ANYONE'S book) as best I could, even taking some people 'into my confidence' to 'tell them the truth.'"

"I got a lot of therapy, found out about transgender, saved up money, got an apartment, and started looking at building up a long-term life again."

He also talked about being FtM in some of his messages to carlanime, although he mentioned it right alongside his "heart condition".

And yet he has back-peddled on this so hard less than 3 months later claiming he was cis all the way and anyone who said otherwise is a lier who lies. He was the manly man and hung out with manly men none of those transgendered people because they aren't manly as his manliness.

It was only when he was called out for it and someone had threatened something that is still an unknown that he admitted that he was transgendered but that shouldn't stop him from being cis and he told everyone that he said he was cis because he doesn't want to be treated as a transgendered person.

Same Nonnie but since I can't edit.

He also deleted that entry along with the about seven different versions he had out there.

AYRT

That's true. I pointed it out for the sake of accuracy because Andy will use any little excuse he can to "prove" that the things people say about him here and on the AA blogs aren't true. The anon I replied to was saying that he'd never claimed a trans identity, but really he did. He called himself trans once in public when he was trying to explain away all the terrible things he'd done up to that point, and once in private correspondence when he was trying to win over carlanime. Both instances were obvious plays for sympathy, and he was still publicly saying that he'd never been anything but 100% cishet male when he was talking to carlanime--but it did happen.

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