tf_talk | Gloves Off

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Gloves Off

Please use this post for discussion of those contentious, murky, triggering issues too complex to discuss/moderate on the main post.

Note that this post is NOT a free-for-all and will still be modded for slurs, namecalling, doxxing and trolling. But fair warning that it will not be moderated for discussion of issues some find triggering (trans issues, mental illness, etc.) and that if you choose to participate here, you do so at your own risk.

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But they are starkly different for Andy, if only because he has never claimed to be trans in the first place.

This is incorrect. Andy has claimed a trans identity in the past, and then jettisoned it when he decided to start over and deny any connection to Amy Player's activities.

If you agree that Andy's trans identity cannot be discussed in the same terms as other random trans people's identity, then could you please not bring up other trans people when only Andy is being discussed?

The statement I took issue with is that "We cannot know for sure Andy isn't a woman lying about being a man. Only Andy knows this."

Whether that poster intended it or not, this is wank bait, and any reasonable person accepts that Andy's gender identity is male at this point. To harp on about how we can never really be sure if this is true is unproductive and, in my opinion, dishonest, because things like people's gender identity don't require absolute certainty to be accepted, even in Andy's case. It's certainly not a standard we apply to much anything else. Even KQ accepts that Andy's identity as male is not a lie, manipulation or a put-on.

His male identity is distinct from his claims of being cisgender/not trans, which are A) easily disproven, and B) nonsensical.

This is incorrect. Andy has claimed a trans identity in the past, and then jettisoned it when he decided to start over and deny any connection to Amy Player's activities.

I'm going to have to call for evidence here, because I am not aware of ANY time when Andy claimed a trans identity. He was already calling himself a cis man back when he was still Jordan Wood living with Abbey, making her write about his very real penis which she held every day.

The statement I took issue with is that "We cannot know for sure Andy isn't a woman lying about being a man. Only Andy knows this."

But this statement was NEVER made in this entire thread! I'm serious: link me to the comment where this statement is made.

Whether that poster intended it or not, this is wank bait, and any reasonable person accepts that Andy's gender identity is male at this point.

It's only wank-bait *in your head*, precisely because as I keep repeating and you explain here, EVERYONE accepts that Andy is trans (except Andy himself). YOU are the one who saw someone mentioning his being trans and jumped to "WANK BAIT!" when there was no such thing.

To harp on about how we can never really be sure if this is true

But. Nobody. Is. Doing. This. In. This. Thread. Dammit!

His male identity is distinct from his claims of being cisgender/not trans, which are A) easily disproven, and B) nonsensical.

How can his male identity be distinct from his trans status when his male identity is BORN from the fact that he's trans in the first place?? He wouldn't be male if he weren't trans, and he's trans because he's male. The two go together. You can't argue that we should take his word regarding one thing but dismiss it regarding the other. Either we fully take him at his word, and we accept that he's a cis man, or we fully distrust his word and judge for ourselves what he is. I'm definitely doing the latter: I don't believe a single word of what he says. Instead, I look at what he repeatedly does, and make my own mind up from there. And what he repeatedly does is act like a trans man, so I conclude on my own that he must be a trans man. I hope it's the same for you and everyone else, because believing *anything* he says simply because he says it is even more than stupid: it's dangerous.

Very nicely written Nonnie and a good summation of the problem of talking about this issue.

Kudos to you.

NA

I have no investment in this particular discussion, but I want to point something out:

I am not aware of ANY time when Andy claimed a trans identity.

http://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/600.html?thread=33624#cmt33624

"I have re-connected with my family, moved away from Hollywood, have and intend to have in the future no contact with any fandom of any kind, re-discovered God, changed my name, come to terms with myself as a transgender man, and am now seeking both gender reassignment surgery, normal employment, and a normal, healthy life."

"I was a passionate Star Trek fan, and the idea that I might be transgender had not yet even vaguely occurred to me."

"As Elijah, I tried to deal with the 'terrible situation' of being split off from myself and trapped in a girl's body (the closest I had yet come to confronting being transgender, as the only other exposure I had to the concept was MsAllegro, who sets off every NO alarm in ANYONE'S book) as best I could, even taking some people 'into my confidence' to 'tell them the truth.'"

"I got a lot of therapy, found out about transgender, saved up money, got an apartment, and started looking at building up a long-term life again."

He also talked about being FtM in some of his messages to carlanime, although he mentioned it right alongside his "heart condition".

And yet he has back-peddled on this so hard less than 3 months later claiming he was cis all the way and anyone who said otherwise is a lier who lies. He was the manly man and hung out with manly men none of those transgendered people because they aren't manly as his manliness.

It was only when he was called out for it and someone had threatened something that is still an unknown that he admitted that he was transgendered but that shouldn't stop him from being cis and he told everyone that he said he was cis because he doesn't want to be treated as a transgendered person.

Same Nonnie but since I can't edit.

He also deleted that entry along with the about seven different versions he had out there.

AYRT

That's true. I pointed it out for the sake of accuracy because Andy will use any little excuse he can to "prove" that the things people say about him here and on the AA blogs aren't true. The anon I replied to was saying that he'd never claimed a trans identity, but really he did. He called himself trans once in public when he was trying to explain away all the terrible things he'd done up to that point, and once in private correspondence when he was trying to win over carlanime. Both instances were obvious plays for sympathy, and he was still publicly saying that he'd never been anything but 100% cishet male when he was talking to carlanime--but it did happen.

AYRT

I have two sort-of-conflicting feelings about this.

1. You're right: I was factually wrong. Andy did mention a few times that he saw himself as transgender. So thank you for the correction.

2. At the risk of sounding unreasonable, I still feel like the *spirit* of my initial comment was right. To me, what Andy did is not "claiming an identity". When you admit to something only to immediately walk back on it, that's not claiming to me. When Andy spends more time and effort claiming to be cis and denying being trans, and only barely admits being trans when it can serve his interests, that's not claiming to be trans in my eyes.

I mean, just compare with how he's been claiming to have schizophrenia, and that mental illness made him abusive. There's no doubt whatsoever that he's been claiming those things, because he did it left and right and everywhere! Those things he really did claim and everyone can see it.

But being trans... No, it doesn't feel right to me to say that "he claimed a trans identity". He used it at times as an excuse to get away with things or to woobiefy himself, sure, but he never actually lived his trans identity for any length of time.

Still though, thanks for the correction!

AYRT

I agree with you about the spirit of your comment. As I said in response to another anon, I just wanted to correct a factual error because Andy uses every tiny loophole he can to "prove" that everyone is lying and/or wrong about him.

AYRT

I know what you mean, and you're right of course.

Though I have to admit I'd *love* to see him try to argue that my comment was a lie, just so I could ask him, "Oh, so you admit that you're trans? Just another regular trans guy?" >:D But of course he'll never do that publicly - only in private, with carefully selected targets.

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