continued Thatfucker discussion

[anonniemouse]

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

Comments

*sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, maybe it's just me, but that last comment shouldn't have been frozen. I know people love to wank about this stuff, but that comment was not wanky. It's the sort of things that attracts wankers, true, but cutting off decent threads out of fear of wank is why this place was created.

Unless someone is actually being disrespectful or obviously trolling, I think more discussion is better than less.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Well, the ban on FAA is over tomorrow. At this point we may as well go back there, since it looks like it's not shaping up much different in tf talk.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

People are really, really afraid of being called out.

To be increasingly “pure” on tumblr (and DW) to become less and less complicit in injustice. Thus there is an impulse toward a more and more radical lifestyle where, eventually, you find yourself feeling that “everything is problematic.” You can’t do anything without contaminating yourself. Including exposing thanfiction's lies.

FAA is open to Andy stuff tomorrow. More people are likely to see it there, anyway.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think the same discussion is going to fly on FFA either, in fact it'll probably be cut off a lot sooner.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Goddamn it, is there ANY place where we can have a reasoned, unhindered discussion about these things without mods jumping in like hover parents? I understand freezing things if people are calling names, getting aggro or trolling, but I HATE this trend of, "This is a messy subject, better be safe and shut it down now."

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Seeing as they froze down discussion for a week over the mere mention of delwynmarch, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

And, of course, too many people on Tumblr (and elsewhere) are perfectly fine with screaming profanities at others while making black-and-white statements and insisting anyone who does not do what they say is horrible. And the people who were just sworn and screamed at are supposed to put their heads down and go along with it or else they are The Oppressor. I was complicit in that for a long time, and even did some of it myself, to my eternal shame. Lo these many years ago, I even liked Winterfox. But one thing I've learned is that that kind of communication just plain does not work to further social justice.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

This. Hell, the conversation about Brittany was frozen until (to my amazement) a conversation was had, things were hashed out, and it was discovered that the person concern trolling in that thread was very possibly Andy himself.

Apparently all you have to do to shut a conversation down is get emotional, ALL CAPS, AND THROW IN SOME EXPLETIVES. I AM FUCKING OFFENDED. HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THIS IS OKAY?

Ugh.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

I think more discussion is better than less.

No, anon. LGBT+ people like me are in dire need of constant paternalistic protection. Discussions like this are too dangerous. *eyeroll*

(frozen comment) Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

and LGBT+ people like me find it upsetting, do not think it should be tolerated and quite frankly am unsure why you seem to be assuming none of the mods are LGBT+?

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

As a person who has had "friends" go back through my facebook status history and list out every time I mentioned my gender or sexuality differently than I do now, I'm 100% okay with not having that kind of conversation.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Did they do it because you're a confirmed abuser who attempted to hide your past and utilized your changing identities to harm people?

If not, apples and oranges.

For that matter, not everyone has to take place in every single conversation here. I'm extremely upset by animal abuse, so in order not to have my PTSD symptoms explode like a grenade, I noped the fuck away from the rabbit stuff that TB posted.

Just because a conversation is painful or difficult for you doesn't mean it's not worth having for others.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

*take part

(frozen comment) Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

No, delwyn. No. You're wrong, you've always been wrong, you couldn't be more wrong, please just stop already.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Coming from a similar view point (trans person with a trans friend constantly policing whether or not I was 'really trans') I totally agree. Using Andy's past terms of self-identification get us nowhere, other than derailment. He's a lying liar who lies but going back to this old fight of whether or not he previously referred to himself as a lesbian isn't helpful and can be upsetting to other trans people who already get their identity questioned daily because they may have identified one way or another before coming out.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

This sort of stuff is going to go in the new post in the future, I think, so people can avoid it if they want.

Re: *sigh*

[anonymod]

Question to the community at large: how would you like to see grey-area topics handled?

Obviously the moderators of this kind of community are just people making subjective calls on what is and is not "over the asshole line." Not everybody is going to agree with those calls, and obviously some people disagree strongly with this one.

I see a couple of options here:

- keeping things as they are, with moderators making judgment calls as they are online and focusing mainly on blocking obvious trolls, keeping discussion civil and monitoring the asshole line especially as it relates to mental illness and trans* issues, etc

- opening up another post alongside this one, a la FFA's personal issues/politics/OT post that is not as heavily moderated, aside from content-free trolling and Actually Illegal stuff (of the doxxing genre, but this would need to be discussed), and then directing these discussions there as applicable

- keeping things to just one post and not moderating at all for the asshole line in terms of *ist posting; everyone reads at their own risk and might run into transfail, ableism, body shaming, etc

- something else; maybe we're too deeply entrenched in the FFA-style of anon memeing and aren't seeing an obvious solution

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

I'm thinking creating a "swim at your own risk" post where people can discuss contentious issues would be a good compromise.

The removal of contentless trolling, doxxing and perhaps a ban on actual slurs would help prevent it from descending into utter screaming chaos.

Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

- opening up another post alongside this one, a la FFA's personal issues/politics/OT post that is not as heavily moderated, aside from content-free trolling and Actually Illegal stuff (of the doxxing genre, but this would need to be discussed), and then directing these discussions there as applicable

I like this one. It would be easy for trolls to destroy the community if here if no policing was done in the main post.

Re: *sigh*

[anonniemouse]

I'm liking the second option.

(frozen comment) Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

yes it should've been. it is transphobic.

it is also obviously delywynmarch who leverages his status as a trans man to engage in horribly transphobic rhetoric under the guise of "exposing Andy" CONSTANTLY. just because del doesn't consider himself affected by his own transphobic spin doesn't mean other trans people aren't.

kudos to the mods, quite frankly. transphobia is not "more discussion". it is transphobia and it does nobody any good at all - least of all trans people. it also only further muddies the waters where Andy is concerned because it devolves into a bunch of transphobes insisting their attitudes are no big deal whilst others try to reason with them. there is no need for discussion here to be bogged down by that bullshit.

(you don't need to "identify" as a transphobe to be transphobic, preempting that)

(frozen comment) Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

yes it should've been. it is transphobic.

That's just a declarative statement, ie, your opinion. A lot of people here disagree, which is why there should be a new post for it. That way you don't have to see those conversations if you don't want to.

(frozen comment) Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

+1

I'm glad I'm not the only one who suspected that was delwynmarch using anonymity to protect himself from more backlash in namespace.

(frozen comment) Re: *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Disagree. Pointing out that Andy literally made a post using transgender identity as a "hook" is not transphobia, for example. It's pointing the tactics of an abuser.

And again, are you saying Andy is trans or not? Because he doesn't identify as such.

See, this is why we need a space to debate this stuff.

(frozen comment) Re: *sigh*

[anonniemouse]

Freezing this as it's from a known troll.