tf_talk | continued Thatfucker discussion

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continued Thatfucker discussion

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

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Wait a minute, there's so much more to that post!

"I’m an extrovert. Big time. To the depths of my being. I’m not Rachel Berry or Tinkerbell, I don’t need APPLAUSE to live, but I do need PEOPLE. Human interaction."

That's not what extroversion means. Introverts need people and human interaction too, because we're human beings too, duh. We're introverts, not misanthropes or hermits. Also, yes, Andy, you totally need applause to live, anyone who knows anything about you knows that.

" If I feel truly isolated, I go into such incredibly, incredibly dark places in my head that I’ll actually, physically start shutting down and even hallucinating people to talk to."

Between the internet and the fact that he lives in a residential area, he can EASILY get human contact. Even if the internet is down, all he has to do, literally, is walk out the door. So there are no circumstances under which such an absolute isolation could happen, unless he's literally being put into forced isolation. As far as we know, this has never happened. Which means that what he describes above has never had any reason to happen either. He's *always* had people around him, so he's never needed to hallucinate any. He's flat-out lying to set the scene for the rest of his post.

"I also have a paranoid streak to my mental illness."

As the nonnie who posted the link explains: "Oh, and Andy has a "paranoid streak to his mental illness". You'd think stating that would be redundant, since he claimed to have paranoid schizophrenia." Then again, we're talking about the guy who said elsewhere that he suffers from "schizophrenia with delusions", so why not "paranoid schizophrenia with paranoia".

"No, it’s not the kind that attacks other people because I think they’re out to get me."

That's pretty weird considering that "feelings of persecution" is part and parcel of the definition of paranoia.

"What it does do is attack me instead."

I smell Speshul Snowflake Paranoia coming up.

"What it DOES do is tell me that someone is talking behind my back, is about to turn on me and say they never meant any of the nice things they ever said and hated me all along, that anyone can and will turn on me in the blink of an eye and without so much as a whisper of warning or giving me a chance to do anything about it. It tells me that there are people who will do anything necessary to make sure I’m alone forever and will never succeed at anything. It tells me people want to hurt me or just don’t care if they do."

Looks to me EXACTLY like "people are out to get me".

"It tells me that I’m sick or hurt or dying and it doesn’t matter because I can’t get care because I’m not worth it. It tells me that people are going to leave me, that I’ll be alone if I’m not good enough (protip; it never thinks I’m good enough) if I don’t do enough, if I don’t “earn” it by giving enough, [blah blah blah]"

That's not paranoia at all. That's depression, anxiety, delusions, and hallucinations, but not paranoia.

"It doesn’t help that all these things have happened to me. More than once. For real. Over and over again, in fact. Even recently. Like, this week for some of them."

I guess he's never heard of "It's not paranoia if it's true"?

So to summarize:
- his paranoia which is not about other people being out to get him is in fact exactly that;
- he doesn't know the difference between depression/anxiety/delusions/hallucinations and paranoia;
- he doesn't know that by definition, paranoia cannot refer to the fear of things happening that DO happen regularly.

"It doesn’t help when I’m currently rationing my meds"

Huh. You *cannot* "ration" anti-psychotics. You have to take the dose you need, or you're going to fall back into psychosis sooner or later. Or, well, I guess you can, but only if you're not under excessive stress, and you've got a solid therapy going on, and you have a good handle on your psychosis alarm signals in the first place, which isn't the case with Andy at all, starting with the fact that...

"and hunting for work and being denied and rejected and ignored fifty times a day because I lost my job when someone called my boss with an anonymous tipoff of online lies about me.

It doesn’t help that Brittany’s birthday was a month ago and my grandfather died a year ago yesterday and Brittany’s murder is two weeks from now and people have been actively as awful as they possibly can to me about the latter in particular."

So the poor baby is under enormous stress, and that's when he's choosing to ration his meds? That's a recipe for disaster if I ever saw one.

"I’m really, really fighting it. I swear. But my sleep habits are getting erratic, I’m having more physical symptoms, the thoughts are getting more intense, and in the place on the edge of sleep or when I’m very tired, I’ve SWORN I got phone calls or texts or emails from people I love telling me to fuck off or worse."

And there goes the disaster indeed. What he's describing here is a psychotic relapse. At this point, he should be doing the exact opposite of rationing his meds: he should be upping them, while asking for an emergency appointment with his psychiatrist. If he doesn't trust himself to up his own meds, then he should be checking himself into a psych ward *because he's actively hallucinating*.

"I’ve had panic attacks when a meta has been “late” or I haven’t been able to post “enough” or felt like I can’t get a piece of art “right.” I’ve woken up with my phone in my hand sobbing at a blank screen, or typing on a turned-off computer trying to “answer them.” I’ve felt more and more like I have to fake Perfect ALL THE TIME OR ELSE."

If Andy were schizophrenic, the fact that he puts fandom over his mental health would be enough to determine that he's not ready to manage his meds on his own. He hasn't developed enough of a sense of his priorities. Also, at this point, if he were truly psychotic, he would need to be taken to an emergency meeting with a psychiatrist, *immediately*.

"In the past, when the paranoia got bad,"

What he's describing is not paranoia. It's psychosis. The fact that a smart enough and supposedly regularly treated paranoid schizophrenic wouldn't know what part is paranoia and what part is psychosis is laughable.

"I would hole up with one particular person (or a very small circle of people) I loved and believed I could trust and cling to them like an overly affectionate and desperate to please barnacle. This was hugely, hugely toxic every time, the only exceptions being Brittany, and that’s because she was strong enough to hold me at just enough arm’s length to make me stand on my own and MAKE me socialize with others."

No, sorry, but not even Saint Brittany could pull someone out of a psychotic episode. Psychosis doesn't work that way.

More importantly, he's proving here that he's never had a single psychotic episode around other people in his life, or even seen or been around someone going through a psychotic episode. Because those people he supposedly surrounded himself with when his psychosis got bad would have noticed that he was psychotic as soon as he opened his mouth. Psychotic people undergoing a bad psychotic episode DON'T. MAKE. SENSE. Even when what they say doesn't turn into full-blown word salad (and I'm talking of actual word salad here, not Andy's coherent word diarrhea), their reasoning and discourse are still very visibly off in many different ways: illogical connections between unrelated topics, obsessions with odd topics, difficulties with making complete sentences, sliding from one topic to another within a single sentence or jumping from one topic to another between two answers, and so on.

"I’m not doing that this time…and please, please forgive me, I’m avoiding the people who would be SO easy to go into “Savior barnacle” mode with emotionally, because I know if I get close to them in this state, I’ll limpet (or take their refusal to let me limpet as proof that they don’t actually care about me and as a betrayal and be heartbroken)."

Paranoid people in full paranoid state do the exact opposite of limpeting: they don't trust anyone, not even their most loved ones.

"Tim, Dana, Rebecca, and Alanna in particular, I love you so much, and yes, I am ignoring you, and oh, God, it’s tearing me to pieces and I’m so, so sorry, but I swear it’s for your own good right now and PLEASE don’t try to talk me into doing otherwise until I’m back on full meds AND back FULLY on top of my own head. There are qualities in our friendship way too vulnerable to going Bad Places right now.

I also am not in a place where I can engage with the Daydverse much at all, because I’m so close to tipping on the exact lines between real and not real that I need to engage in ruthless analysis of external things, not the creation of internal ones. I started going into Neville’s headspace to write. Then I heard his voice. Like, out loud. I saw him out of the corner of my eye in those green Auror’s robes. And I know that no matter what your opinions of reality and HP or the multiverse or anything like that, that Yorkshire motherfucker ain’t standing in my room. So yup yup nope. Not now."

The bolding is mine. As far as I'm concerned, this removes any doubt from my mind that yes, he was still doing his channeling thing when he wrote this. He's accusing his friends "Tim, Dana, Rebecca, and Alanna" of believing in the multiverse - but where are we supposed to believe they got those ideas in the first place? Nor does he say that they are wrong to believe in it: he only says that Neville is not in his room *right now*, which doesn't preclude Neville visiting him the day before or the day after. (Also, is it canon that Neville is from Yorkshire? Because if not, this would be another way for Andy to keep encouraging his friends to believe in the existence of DAYD!Neville.)

"And right now, as I’m typing this, I’m shaking so hard and so terrified and nauseated I’ve had to take off most of my clothes, breathe deeply, and lie down. I’m saying no. I’m turning people down. I’m saying I can’t. I’m saying I won’t. I’m saying NO. When people need me and want from me.

And they’re all gonna hate me, gonna leave me, gonna turn on me. [blah blah blah again]"

That's not paranoia. That's anxiety and depression. Not the same thing at all.

Also, if he were somehow truly paranoid and thinking this, he wouldn't publicly mention it. Precisely because he'd be too afraid of it coming true.

And finally: when you've got schizophrenia and start feeling that bad, your therapist should have taught you to haul your ass to emergency care. And if you don't do it yourself, *someone* is gonna have to do it sooner or later, because it's not going to solve itself on its own. But of course, there's no sign anywhere that Andy was dragged to a psychiatrist or a hospital following this post.

"But I’m going to hold the line here. I WILL. I’ve got to. Because it really does matter that much to me, and I’m not going to let my brain take anything else."

But he still won't give his brain as much meds as it needs, or take it to get proper medical help.

" And I know they really do care and aren’t going anywhere. I’m stronger than this and so are they.

I don’t really believe that. But I have to.

In the mean time, I want to give a huge, huge, huge thank you to the Supernatural family. I have friends here that I can spend time with, talk with for hours, but who are strong enough and self-contained enough and PEERS and LIKE me but don’t NEED me. I’ve never really had this before in such a real way that didn’t have five hundred fucked-up caveats. I don’t have to be afraid of you OR afraid of myself with you, no matter what the Bad Things try to tell me. "

The way he jumps from "Woe is me! I'm in the depths of despair!" to "My new SPN fandom is awesome!" is just a tad disturbing to me. He makes it a little bit too obvious that this is in fact the main point he wanted to make all along.

"It’s no exaggeration to say that if it wasn’t for the interaction and the analytical, exterior-based socialization and support and the love you’ve all shown, I’d either have gone into another toxic relationship or just completely shut down or decided fuck this whole spinning turkeyfarm and exited stage left pursued by my own hallucinatory bear. You’re fighting my monsters without even knowing it, and at least so far, you’re winning."

So he can tell he's hallucinating, but he won't take himself to see a doctor. And once again, he pretends that simply being around the right people is enough to fight back psychosis. And let's not forget how he throws ALL his other friends under the bus, implicitely accusing them of being useless failures who couldn't have managed what the SPN fandom did.

"This is abjectly terrifying because it’s vulnerable and it’s admitting to needing and admitting to not being good enough, but you deserved to know. "

Admitting that your brain is ill and that no amount of willpower or effort can fully compensate for that, is the very first step in successfully dealing with schizophrenia (and many other mental illnesses). If Andy were truly and enthusiastically being treated for schizophrenia as he pretends, he would have needed to learn to let go of such dangerous concepts as "I must never show vulnerability" a while ago already.

"SPN fans are a family, and this is the family business. You’re killing things and saving someone.

And this time, they say thank you."

And there he closes the trap he set up for the SPN fans in the rest of the post. First he states that SPN fans as a whole are a family, which they very much aren't, no matter how much some of them like to believe it. Then, since they are a family, they have to accept him whether they want to or not, and worse, whether they feel able to deal with him and his supposed schizophrenia or not. And look, he's even saying thanks, so how could they refuse, especially after he spent so much time explaining how he so desperately needs people's approval?

Nice manipulation job, as usual. But he gets all the details wrong because of poor research, as usual too.

This is fabulous analysis. Well reasoned, anon.

"I would hole up with one particular person (or a very small circle of people) I loved and believed I could trust and cling to them like an overly affectionate and desperate to please barnacle. This was hugely, hugely toxic every time, the only exceptions being Brittany, and that’s because she was strong enough to hold me at just enough arm’s length to make me stand on my own and MAKE me socialize with others."

The other thing that he's done here--and it's something he's done many times before, and continues to do--is to say that Brittany was the ONE PERSON, EVER, who was observant enough, caring enough, and strong enough to manage Andy's mental illness as it needed to be managed. There are several things wrong with this:

a) We know that Brittany was involved in the "undead shaman wizard" incident to the extent that she was the one writing the emails that described the alleged psychic battle, and that Andy claims that he spent his birthday in 2010 holed up with her and some other friends, engaged in another alleged psychic battle. We also have testimony from a former DAYDian that Brittany believed in Andy's "channeling" and professed belief in his stories even when he wasn't around (at least in fall 2010 and possibly after that). That does not sound at all like a person who was aware that their friend had a mental illness and was trying to help them with it.

b) Even if we accept that sometime in between the California-Vancouver hike in fall 2010 and her murder, Brittany abandoned her prior belief in Andy's "abilities" and decided that he had a mental illness, it was not her responsibility to manage it with or for him. If this is actually what she was doing, their relationship was STILL "hugely, hugely toxic" for her.

Andy's claim that Brittany was "strong enough" to make this okay does a grave disservice to her memory and sends a very unhealthy message to any of his followers who have mental illnesses themselves or have a partner who does. There is a reason that the phrase "support network" arises so often in all kinds of therapy. When anyone relies solely on one other person for support and care, that is an extremely dangerous situation for both parties.

c) By making the point that Brittany was exceptional because of her personal strength, Andy is not so subtly setting up a challenge for his friends and followers. At the same time that he's saying that he's not going to isolate himself with one person and cling to them, this is what that post says between the lines:

It's possible--not easy, but possible--for Andy's mental health to rest safely in the hands of just one person. Brittany did it. Brittany helped him. Brittany was strong. His other friends were weak. Are you strong the way Brittany was? Could you be that one special person that can help Andy now? He's just told you what she did that was so helpful. It doesn't sound that hard. Couldn't you do that for him? I'll bet you could. He just told you how strong and smart you are. And if you do get close and let him cling to you, you'll be on the receiving end of all that affection and desperation to please. You have his number; he publishes it all the time. Why not give him a call?

This is a can't-lose situation for Andy. He's made it very clear that he will not accept contact from those people that he's already decided to cut off, so this challenge is only going out to other friends and to fresh targets in the SPN fandom. The latter have also been primed with his talk of SPN fandom as a family of strong people who are his equals and don't need him--like Brittany! If someone takes up the challenge, he can decide whether to refuse (making him look like a noble sufferer and reinforcing the surface-level message of the post) or to accept (possibly gaining a new "constant").

TB

...also, d) Andy is victim-blaming HIS OWN VICTIMS for either not being clever enough to realize that the channeling, etc. wasn't real, or not being "strong enough" to manage his alleged mental illness. Clearly everything he put them through was their own fault. If only they'd been as perfect as Brittany, it never would have happened.

That post just keeps getting worse.

TB

The victim-blaming is what stands out the most to me, as well. I know it's no surprise at this point that he does it, but it never ceases to be really fucking awful.

He's also said before--and implies here, with the "desperate to please" thing--that some of his victims were deliberately using him. So he's victim-blaming AND making himself out to be the "real victim" AND encouraging his new friends to show that they're Not Selfish Like the Others.

TB

I've seen this with a particularly toxic friend of mine. Talks about how he's the best boyfriend ever, and all he wants to do is please his man and make the other guy happy, and that guys end up taking advantage of his eagerness to please. It took me a long time to see that he himself was actually the common denominator in the string of unhealthy relationships :/

And he definitely hooked me with the challenge to be a better, more understanding friend than anyone else had been.

DA

My ex does this kind of thing. He was going to a friend of mine for sympathy about how hard he was trying to take care of me and make me happy while he was controlling everything in my life and ignoring and neglecting me to the point that he was only giving me a meal (sometimes less) a day to eat. It can be tricky to spot this kind of thing if you don't know what to look for especially if you don't get to observe the person a lot. You only get to see what they choose to show you and it's only natural to want to believe and trust your friends. Good for you for being able to notice that pattern nonnie.

AYRT

I'm so sorry he did that to you, and deceived your friend that way. Hope you're doing better and safely away from that dirtbag.

I'm glad I noticed the pattern -- and also really glad that I'm not his preferred gender. We were really unhealthily codependent for about a year, and anything sexual/romantic would have clouded my judgment even more.

the person who abused me was always really good at shifting the definition of what a relationship is to what suited her and then would paint herself as a model girlfriend, because she stuck to the rules and was soooo open-minded and her partners as the mean prudes who were clipping her wings

she also had me convinced for years that I was basically taking advantage of her even though I did a huge amount of work on her thesis and also acted as her amateur-therapist/sounding board when she was depressed.

The way he described Abbey as being the selfish and abusive one who was mercilessly using him and demanding ever more from him no matter how hard he tried to satisfy her, will never not anger me.

it's just so bizarre! he is an adult and only people who should be managing his illness are himself and paid professionals

hi del

Absolutely fantastic deconstruction. I'd like to pinpoint a few things, because they might be able to break down "I have schizophrenia/paranoia/psychosis" even more.

As has already been pointed out, people undergoing a psychotic episode cannot interact normally with reality. They may have a kind of internal logic dictating their actions and behaviors, but that's because it's a facet of the disorder. With Andy's presentation being all over the map, it doesn't follow the internal consistency that psychosis normally has.

For example:

I’ve SWORN I got phone calls or texts or emails from people I love telling me to fuck off or worse."

And there goes the disaster indeed. What he's describing here is a psychotic relapse. At this point, he should be doing the exact opposite of rationing his meds: he should be upping them, while asking for an emergency appointment with his psychiatrist. If he doesn't trust himself to up his own meds, then he should be checking himself into a psych ward *because he's actively hallucinating*.

Now, here's something to keep in mind. Usually people have prevalent or dominant types of hallucinations, when they have psychosis. Andy runs the whole gamut from visual to aural hallucinations, which is actually kind of weird. He follows the trope of "hearing voices", as that's the most common sort of hallucination, but then mentions seeing people, and that right there throws everything off a cliff, because generally people who have several types of hallucinations, as well as severe delusions, tend to be far more extremely impaired than people with a single type of hallucination.

Basically, if Andy was really psychotic with so many severe presenting features, he would literally not be able to appear normal, as he so consistently does. Psychosis is not something you can fake your way through; I'm a very high functioning person with episodes of psychosis, and even then, complete strangers can tell that something is fucking wrong with me, when I'm ramping up to an episode.

So he can tell he's hallucinating, but he won't take himself to see a doctor. And once again, he pretends that simply being around the right people is enough to fight back psychosis. And let's not forget how he throws ALL his other friends under the bus, implicitely accusing them of being useless failures who couldn't have managed what the SPN fandom did.

THIS is another big NOOOOOPE. Why? Because part and parcel of having hallucinations is their incorporation of themselves into your new schema of normal. You literally are convinced this shit is real. This is another part of psychosis, as your perceived reality is separate from others' perception of reality. If you know you are actively hallucinating, these are called pseudohallucinations. Or, alternatively in Andy Blake's case, you're just full of bullshit.

Also mentioned is the needing to seek out people, but now you have to weigh that against his persecutory delusions. If you have persecutory delusions, you are not going to seek out people more. You are not going to rely on them to help you, because even the people you normally trust the most are suspect. Again, your perceived reality is different from others' perceived reality, and due to the rules of internal consistency governing your delusions, you aren't going to be making exceptions or asking people if this shit is real.

When I have having paranoid delusions, everyone was suspect. Even my own mother. I isolated myself away from everyone, and only went through my "normal" routine so as not to appear "suspicious" and garner the attention of "them". I still presented as off, but I was able to function because my psychosis wasn't all that debilitating (at the time).

Basically, Andy is a fuckwit who doesn't have personal experience of psychosis.

AYRT

Thank you for all the added comments, Anon :)

I didn't know about pseudohallucinations. Thank you!

Basically, if Andy was really psychotic with so many severe presenting features, he would literally not be able to appear normal, as he so consistently does.

Ah but you forget: this is the guy who hallucinated hundreds of alters (never mind that alters are not a feature of schizophrenia/psychosis), and got cured of them in about two months of therapy. Appearing normal is child's game compared to that...

Also, another thank you in particular for expounding on what paranoia feels like, because I'm so fucking tired of Andy going, "I couldn't ask for help or talk to any medical professional about my alters, because I was paranoid, and so I was afraid the government would kidnap me," when all along he was happily entrusting all his "secrets" to whomever seemed willing enough to believe him. It drives me crazy that people just take his word for it, when a simple research would tell them that paranoia really doesn't work like that.

Here's the tricky thing about this line--
"If I feel truly isolated, I go into such incredibly, incredibly dark places in my head that I’ll actually, physically start shutting down and even hallucinating people to talk to."

He's playing to his followers here. He doesn't say that he IS alone, but that he FEELS alone. He's trying to get them to identify with him because a large chunk of his followers are young kids who feel like their families don't understand them and thus feel isolated even though there are people around him. "Look--I feel just like you do! We're both alone even when we're surrounded by people because no one understands us!"

It's just so gross and it drives me nuts.

This was pretty damn awesome, anon. Well-done.

"I’m not Rachel Berry or Tinkerbell, I don’t need APPLAUSE to live"

this is funny, because it's directly ripped from the show, specifically where Rachel loses her voice and says "I'm like Tinkerbell, Finn. I need applause to live!”

like he literally can't think up one lousy metaphor on his own

SA

I wondered for a second why he never made a foray into Glee fandom but then realised it's probably way too Actually Gay for him

I feel like he dipped a toe a little bit in the Klaine corner of the fandom, though I was not in that part, so I don't really know how deep. I do remember a pompous post he made about the show once.

He probably didn't get too involved because there were already a lot of BNFs doing Important Meta and he couldn't really carve out a place for himself. Plus, after s3, there was a huge migration of a lot of the younger fans from the fandom, so less impressionable kids for him to fuck with.

Here's the post I mentioned - http://andythanfiction.tumblr.com/post/45952627848/because-i-can-smell-wank-gathering-on-the

Because I can smell wank gathering on the horizon…
Glee starts in half an hour.
They will be covering Wham!’s “Wake Me Up Before You Go Go”
This is the original.
This is the cover.
The CHOOSE LIFE tshirts are from the original video. They were an 80’s anti-suicide campaign. They are basically “It Gets Better” shirts.
They have fuck-all to do with abortion.
I will be ignoring any asks that try to wank that they do.

… like I said I was in Glee fandom and didn't see any wank about this, I don't think there was any? Talk about manufacturing drama, yeesh.

ayrt

I checked out his Glee tag and it seems he wrote a bit (including creepy Unique-stanning, creepy because he likes writing gross transmisogynist crap)

it's true that after season 3 Glee fandom just sort of started eating itself, and seems that's when he bowed out (I didn't see wank about that either but this is Glee... if there was wank to be had, it was probably happening somewhere)

It's interesting that he was a Klainer, I think there is discussion somwehere about how he likes slashy understones but not actual gayness. Though when it comes to sheer activity, Klaine fandom is a logical choice, it produces a lot of content and exists somewhat separately from meta-people or multishippers (*nostalgic OT sigh* there never was a greener pasture for multishipping within cannon than Glee...)

sa

obviously, I have only seen tagged posts and I don't feel like trying to plow throught the rest of his blog, but he seems to a great extent have used the Klaine and Glee tags to advertise his comissions

http://andythanfiction.tumblr.com/post/14077918407/blatant-begging

welp ("a damned good artist"... sure)

Damn right he's not Rachel Berry. And thank god for that.

/a Rachel Berry stan

(and yeah, that line is lifted right from an episode of the show, or perhaps even just one of the many gif sets of that scene floating around on Tumblr)

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