tf_talk | continued Thatfucker discussion

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continued Thatfucker discussion

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

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I didn't see anything wrong with the discussion I saw last night. In fact, I thought it was quite valuable and respectful. I can't find it today - can't tell if it was removed or if I haven't had enough coffee - but it is odd to see this being an issue.

-KQ

As I said upthread, this is going to be a really tricky area for me to mod and I know already I won't always get it right. I'm committed to remaining respectful of Brittany and was initially horrified that someone felt that wasn't happening here. But the last thing I want to do is cut off a discussion that needs to be had, and I truly believe Andy's abuse of Brittany and her memory deserves to have attention called to it.

The thread in question was frozen, not deleted. I'm going to go back and review it now that I'm not running around like mad at work and have some time on my hands.

you should be horrified, because it's not happening here. this insistence that anything that is a "matter of public record" is subject to any kind of speculation or "interpretation" is bullshit and it is unethical. That video upset me to the point of tears. so did the wildly and grossly speculative comments on her state of mind and the presumption to know what was going through her head that happened here.
and equal bullshit is the idea that calling for some boundaries and respect in our discussions is somehow "giving in" to andy. no. it is not.

I do feel certain parties have a habit of conflating interpretation with objective fact, but come the hell on.

From upthread:

Question: do you think Brittany was content to believe that it was up to her to defend innocent children from a horrific death? Do you for one moment imagine this was the only instance of Andy keeping her awake at night with claims it was up to them to avert a terrible disaster?

I'll admit this is "speculation" and "presumption", but unless Brittany was as sociopathic as Andy is (which I don't believe), there's no way her time with him wasn't stressful. There's no way there wasn't "agony" involved. For god's sake, how would you feel if the very lives of children were placed on your shoulders? I don't know if you know this, but she had many little siblings she frequently cared for. To say that she went through hell with Andy isn't disrespectful. If anything, saying she was "off" is an understatement of the emotional torment she must have endured.

any kind of speculation or "interpretation" is bullshit and it is unethical.

except no one is claiming that. they're discussing how difficult her time with andy must have been, despite appearances, because her literally had her up at night fighting the undead. all the discussions is in relation to andy's abuse, not other areas of her life which are very fairly off-limits.

mods, you should keep track of ip addresses of people like this as abbey suggested. this sounds a heck of a lot like cfc to me, and even if it isn't, certain people will probably show up here at one point or another to derail discussions.

Going over the comments again and some of them are indeed suspect so I'll begin to keep an eye on it.

There is no way I can send a pm without going not anon, so I have to do this here.

I am not a troll. I wanted and thought people here would be interested in knowing my thoughts given I had life experience with having have happen what I was saying Andy's parents should do. I was not coming at it from not understanding the implications.

I'm not coming back here and putting this on my block list since I was wrong in thinking I could handle my words being possible taken wrong. That was my fault for misjudging what I could handle and I'm sorry for subjecting you all to me not being able to handle that.

I do apologize for name calling and that I upset anyone that thought I was being callous or blaming Andy's parents for his actions and behavior.

Best of luck to you, nonnie. I'm sorry you were upset today.

I'm sorry you were upset, nonnie, and I hope your day gets better from here.

This just shows what a decent person you are nonnie. Every has their off days and it's understandable you'd get upset and frustrated when you genuinely mean well and while the way you handled that upset and frustration wasn't very helpful, the fact you came back to apologise and explain where you were coming from once you'd cooled down reflects well on you as a person. Thank you, I hope you have a better day today.

Agreed. I read it and thought this has got CFC's hand-wringing, passive aggressive concern-trolling all over it!

That video upset me to the point of tears.
But you watched it, knowing full well that it would include Brittany talking about life with Andy. Which, if I'm following your line of argument here, is a disrespectful and possibly unethical act. You watched the video, and after it upset you, you called foul and started invoking arguments about the morality of consuming and discussing things that you don't think should be part of the public record. After doing exactly what you're trying to condemn other people for doing. I... don't understand the thought process involved in doing something and then getting mad at other people for doing the same thing, yet showing no self-reflection regarding your own participation.

The current consensus seems to be that while it's a fine line to walk between healthy discussion and overspeculation when talking about Andy's victims, nobody has yet crossed that line. The mod is clearly doing her best to navigate that delicate balance. TF's biggest weapon is rhetoric: how he talks about himself, his life, his victims and his victims' lives. He is incredibly invested in shifting and changing narratives. If we can't talk about the basic facts and interpretations of those facts, we can't effectively shine a light on how Andy twists the truth.

The person who has been disrespectful to Brittany's memory is and always has been Andy. Going on a tear because nonnies want to talk about that doesn't change that simple fact.

Finally, perhaps you would be better served, personally, by stepping back from materials such as the video, since they seem to have an exceptional affect on you. Again, nothing wrong with that. Empathy is a powerful and positive thing.

That video upset me to the point of tears.

....okay, now I honestly think you're....not trolling exactly but speaking in really heightened emotional language that isn't helping. This is starting to sound more like concern trolling and wank-stirring than any concern for Brittany.

+1. "I cried" is not an argument.

Hey, its a hard job, which is why I laughed darkly when I saw a mention on FFA that they'd sort if invited me to mod TF discussion. Oh hell no, I wouldn't want the job! But since my name was in your reply I thought I'd weigh in.

The hardest part IMO I'd probably going to be you learning what level of people judging *you* and what you do/n't mod. People WILL tattle to mods - and sometimes it will be TF or one of his defenders. If you have IP tracking on it can be helpful for that - you can identify trolls over time and be aware of tat tendency. But discussion/debate is important too, as is talking about things that are uncomfortable, personal, intimate and speculative. It happens.

You're clearly very receptive to feedback and obviously trying your damndest. Just take a deep breath. This comm is going to have growing pains like it found Leonardo Di Caprio in a dumpster (80s tv reference FTW). Figuring out how threads should work, modding issues, inevitable trolling and harassment. Most anon comms die off, usually pretty quickly. I think this one could make it, and be a useful resource for discussion and archiving. Just keep breathing.

-KQ

Thank you for your advice, Abbey, it means a lot to me. I'll continue to do my best here -- and probably mess up a lot along the way -- but I hope it works out because these discussions ARE important.

Also -- god, no, I wouldn't have dreamed of asking you! But I'm glad you're here and thank you again for your kind words ~~and 80s TV reference I'll have to google.~~

Thanks for offering your thoughts, Abbey. It means a lot.

I want to thank you for how you've handled this, because there's no way this discussion would even have occurred on FFA. Everything would have been shut down immediately because the mods don't have the patience to deal with it, or don't want to wrangle with the issues.

I agree and also appreciate it.

Odd that someone would call for some boundaries around what people speculate about a dead girl's thoughts during recorded footage? come on.

Anon, can you clarify exactly what was said that had you crying? Because I don't see anything in the thread that, frankly, would be so upsetting given that the context is "we know she was in a close relationship with a serial manipulator who has since been lying about that relationship."

There are absolutely are boundaries about Brittany's life, and since this is a TF community, they probably revolve around keeping discussion of Brittany limited to Andy's involvement with her and the subsequent fallout.

These boundaries have been adhered to. All the discussion I saw was essentially, "This victim of a known manipulator who broke from reality seems/may be similar to other victims of manipulation who broke from reality and suffered as a result."

I'm going to need you to explain your reasoning about why this is so awful, instead claiming "it's just obvious" or invoking emotion as others have done.

From just above where the video was posted - discussion being limited, in the thread in question:

It's disgusting. It's unforgivable. Brittany was a real person, and she was fucking murdered. She was not a character in one of his fucked up roleplays. She was a human being with a family and friends and people who loved her; people who are potentionally still being hurt whenever he decides to namedrop her and wants to act like it's because they were starcrossed lovers.

He does not get to invoke her name every time he wants to garner support for his current crazy scheme or draw attention to his latest pet project. He does not get to re-write the person she actually was just because it bolsters his bullshit narrative.

That seems a lot more respectful than the screeching about "boundaries"

I'll admit here that this is my comment as it might help explain some why -- troll or no troll -- I found the accusations of insensitivity upsetting enough to freeze the thread in question.

The last thing I'd ever want is to be disrespectful on this subject, because that's what Andy does and it's vile.

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