tf_talk | continued Thatfucker discussion

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continued Thatfucker discussion

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

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I actually LOVE discussing possibilities, as long as the debate doesn't devolve into personal attacks.

Me too, anon! I've just learned to check, because sometimes I am just idly discussing possibilities, and then belatedly find out the other person is feeling upset because we're arguing.

Agreed, 100% , though it can't be just a matter of his being trans. I'm trans myself, and I know a fair number of trans people. Self-hatred for being

This is something I've OFTEN wondered about re: Andy. I only know two trans people IRL, and a handful online, but NONE of them have his...problems. And okay, some of that is because they aren't raging sociopaths who treat other people like convenient props, but aside from that dramatic difference, they just seem...happier. Better adjusted. I mean, I have heard opinions ranging from "fine with my body even if it isn't what I'd have preferred" to "hate it and want to change it," but no trans person I've ever spoken to has sounded as if they hate their whole SELF.

But Andy's self-loathing appears bottomless. Or, rather, the number of things he'll hide/lie about/present a pretend version of is all over the map. Politics; degree of attraction to people; what he really thinks of particular body types; authors he admires...I've seen him lie about all of it. It's weird.

My opinion is far more radical on this matter. I don't think Andy is EVER interested in anyone but himself, nor that he EVER has good intentions when "befriending" someone. In fact, to be blunt: I don't think he sees other people as his equal, EVER. Other people are just potential tools, pets, cattle, slaves, and so on, for him, but not Human Beings like himself.

You could well be right. I haven't seen any evidence to contradict your opinion.

And Meg, right now, right under our eyes.

This. Completely. And I think the "under our eyes" part is also crucial, though I'm struggling to articulate it. I think abusing her, in a way his critics can see but cannot prevent, gives him more satisfaction than merely making use of her would. I think it gives him a sense of power to have his detractors state, again and again, what they see going on there, but to still have the ability to convince her otherwise.

I've just learned to check, because sometimes I am just idly discussing possibilities, and then belatedly find out the other person is feeling upset because we're arguing.

Oooh boy, do I know what you mean!

I mean, I have heard opinions ranging from "fine with my body even if it isn't what I'd have preferred" to "hate it and want to change it," but no trans person I've ever spoken to has sounded as if they hate their whole SELF.

Same here. I've never met or heard of a trans person who hated every single aspect of themselves just because they were trans (depression is another matter, whether or not it was initially created/encouraged by the gender dysphoria). There are a few trans people who are overwhelmed with *anger* towards people/society/their family/their friends/whoever and even themselves sometimes, because of how hard being trans makes their life in general. There are also too many trans people who are overcome with *despair*, convinced they will never find lasting happiness because being trans will always mess everything up, no matter what they try to do. And there can be internalized shame, too, including in trans people who are out and live as their true gender, but I've never seen it lead to such extensive and complete self-hatred. Andy is utterly unique in my experience in that regard, which is why I'm convinced that while being trans might be one factor among many for his self-hatred, it cannot be THE factor for it.

the number of things he'll hide/lie about/present a pretend version of is all over the map. Politics; degree of attraction to people; what he really thinks of particular body types; authors he admires...I've seen him lie about all of it. It's weird.

I don't know, it seems logical to me, in its own way. The way I see it, Andy doesn't want to be anyone in particular: he just wants to be Special. So he adapts himself to his current social environment, changing whichever parts of his exterior fake identity don't fit well enough to garner him the admiration he seeks. Almost *nothing* we've seen of him at any time has been real. Almost all of it has been fake, aimed at attracting the attention of the crowd he was in at that moment.

I think that's why it's so easy for him to flatly deny stuff he's done, and constantly rewrite history: because it's true that the character he's playing today, never did what that other character he was playing back then did. It's true! Who he pretends to be now never did what happened back then. It was someone else, another person he was pretending to be. And it wouldn't be fair to hold his present character responsible for the sins of his previous character, would it? He *knows* that's considered cheating by us lowly human beings, but 1) he doesn't care to play by our rules (quite the contrary: he expects us to accept to be ruled by his desires), and 2) he knows this tactic works on enough people anyway. So he plays it 110% and keeps getting away with everything. Why would he change a tactic that works so beautifully well?

I'm only talking about his *exterior* personality, though. Basically, he puts on characters like he puts on cosplay, but that doesn't change who he fundamentally is. The problem is that since he absolutely doesn't want to be himself, he's never out of costume. He's cosplaying 24/7, so we have to look at the common trends among his many characters to figure out what belongs to the real him. After 15 years of internet presence, it's starting to become obvious which same obsessions keep re-appearing: extreme misogyny, including body-shaming for *every* type of female body and blatant Madonna-Whore Complex; hyper-glorification of anything he considers "manly"; fixation on manpain, complete with the liberal use of Fridging Women, or male-on-female rape of the hero's love interest or other close female friend/family, to further the hero's mainpain; fetishization of child soldiers, child sexual abuse, and child abuse in general, all the way to (as you mentioned) making real people think they've gone through it when they haven't; preaching of loyalty to one's leader over everything else; and so on. Those are his *true* personality, the one he hides under the fake outer characters, but it keeps bleeding through every time.

And I think the "under our eyes" part is also crucial, though I'm struggling to articulate it. I think abusing her, in a way his critics can see but cannot prevent, gives him more satisfaction than merely making use of her would. I think it gives him a sense of power to have his detractors state, again and again, what they see going on there, but to still have the ability to convince her otherwise.

I agree completely. To me, that's part of his "hiding in plain sight" method: he can afford to literally gloat about some of the abuse he inflicts, because he knows that either people won't see it, or they'll be powerless to do anything if they do see it (because, unlike him, normal human beings have moral limits, things they won't do, so they won't and can't take the extreme steps that would be necessary to rescue his victims). Among other things, I'm sure he's the one who sent Meg here: she's always been very insistant about not wanting to get involved in The Wank, and she's almost always kept her word on that matter. So why would she suddenly show up on an anon meme dedicated to The Wank? Because he sent her here, to dangle her under our noses, make us hope (no matter how briefly) that maybe we would finally have a chance to get through to her, even as he knew that not only there was no chance of that, but she would come away from the experience even more convinced that the "anti-Andy" people are just bad, hateful and hurtful. He's making a public show of manipulating her, like he did with Abbey for example, and yes, that's crucial and incredibly sick.

NA

he can afford to literally gloat about some of the abuse he inflicts, because he knows that either people won't see it, or they'll be powerless to do anything if they do see it

This is actually pretty common with abusers--I know I've seen it with child molesters. They will sometimes escalate their attacks and become even worse after being investigated by the cops, because they know that it won't come to anything and nobody will believe it. (I've been reading about Earl Bradley, who video-taped himself raping and choking over a hundred toddlers while nobody did anything, despite multiple complaints. He got WORSE after the cops investigated him.)

I only know two trans people IRL, and a handful online, but NONE of them have his...problems.

If it helps, I'm trans, have a background somewhat similar to the more plausible narrative he peddles, and I have yet to do any of his shit. And I hated myself enough to try and commit suicide by slowly starving myself to death and then jumping off a bridge. (The starvation was because I believed I didn't deserve a better death.)

I honestly don't give a shit if he hates himself. I don't care WHY he does this crap at all, because that's part of his shit. He always wants you to try and figure out his pain, what could cause him to be such a monster. "Don't you want to know my evil plan?" NO. DUDE, I DON'T CARE WHY YOU'RE A FLAMING SHITPILE. I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR PRECIOUS FUCKING FEELINGS.

He loves to do that, make the focus about HIS feelings, HIS thoughts, how he sees the world. He doesn't need to look inside himself; he needs to STOP and grow the fuck up, if you ask me.

NA

+1000000

I too am a trans person and also a CSA survivor, which has led to me harbouring some intense self-hate over the years. Yet I've never done shit Andy's done or even contemplated it. Like, I'm not a well-adjusted person and I've lied about stuff (my gender, childhood, etc.), but I've never ended up leading a cult of personality. Just plain lying is different to actual manipulation.

And like AIRT said, it doesn't really matter why Andy keeps on abusing other people. It matters that he keeps on doing it. Like, theorising and wondering is all dandy and good, but imo when we're talking about Andy it's usually just derailing instead of enlightening. After all that's exactly what Andy wants people to do: to wonder about his Most Interesting Backgroundstory and Precious Feelings, instead of how he's still fucking people over.

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