tf_talk | continued Thatfucker discussion

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continued Thatfucker discussion

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

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It reminds me of "Johnny B. Goode," and makes me LOL.

But at the risk of sounding overly supportive, I hope he gets enormously caught up in cosplay, because roleplaying and pretending and dressing up are the (good) essence of Andy. Lying about who he is IS who he is, now, and if he could just learn to stop pretending to care about other people and then dumping them the rest would be inconsequential.

I'm afraid you've got this backwards, anon. Andy's essence, who he is, is a cult of personality leader. What he needs above all else is to be at the *constant* center of attention, to be worshipped and to be in *absolute* control of other people's lives. Lying and pretending to be someone he's not are just the tools to get fans and potential cult members. He will NEVER "stop pretending to care about other people and then dumping them", because this cycle of abuse is what his entire life is about. Everything he's ever done and everything he'll ever do, is centered on finding people to abuse: that's literally his only goal in life.

I really don't think so, other anon (although I am not heavily invested either way, so if you aren't in the mood to toss the argument around, or if doing so will upset you, just let me know and I'll drop it). I think the lying started first, because Andy disliked himself. I think the abuse sprang from a few different things:

1.he was already doing a lot of "pretending" to compensate for having the wrong body, so "pretending" to be in love/more in love/a great and loyal friend, etc, didn't seem like that big a deal and were means to an end (the end being "escape and change identity").

2. He's too narcissistic to keep his attention on another person for long, so no matter how good his intentions might be going into a relationship, dropping the other person is inevitable once he gets bored. I have no idea if he even understands that this ISN'T okay.

3. He tries to impose his issues and hurts on other people. Like the thing where he makes other people re-enact his hurt/anger towards his poor parents, who probably didn't even know they were failing to be supportive of him because they didn't immediately understand that he was trans...and he's still not forgiven them, so he makes other people go through the same hurt/anger/cutting off their parents thing, over and over and over. Similarly, he hates his body and so he slyly sabotages the self esteem of the women who trust him (or not so slyly in the case of his blatant abuse of Abbey).

But I think his goal in life is "be anyone but myself, or at least, make everyone BELIEVE I'm someone else."

NA If making people believe he was someone else was his goal in life then he could have achieved it much more easily than by building cults and abusing people. Move away; cut all ties with people you know; start over as new person. People do it all the time. What people don't do all the time is create abusive cults and brainwash others.

I really feel like you're buying into his "the cults and abuse just sorta happened around me by accident I'm an innocent woobie" rhetoric here, and it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

No, I don't think they were an accident. I mean, I'm accident prone myself, and yet cults and abuse have never just spontaneously happened around me.

But I think the cults and abuse are secondary to the self-loathing and re-invention. A kinder person, or even just a less self-absorbed one, would have followed the easier path to reinvention; thousands of people do, I'm sure. But a narcissistic, damaged, entitled person will just...lie, lie, lie, and make use of whatever comes to hand, including people.

+1

NAYRT

If making people believe he was someone else was his goal in life then he could have achieved it much more easily than by building cults and abusing people.

True. The way I see it, he doesn't just want to be someone else. He wants to be exceptional. He wants to be like nobody else. He wants to be seen as above everybody else. He hates himself so much that he craves outside worshipping more than anything else. Which is where building cults comes in, and consequently abusing people to build the cults.

If I'm right, it's certainly extremely sad that he should hate himself so much, but that does NOT make him a woobie, or innocent. Loads of people hate themselves and don't take it out on others. And he KNOWS that the abuse he commits is morally wrong, since he works so hard to hide it when he does it, and to deny it when it's exposed. He's being deliberately abusive, and this is not acceptable no matter the reason.

although I am not heavily invested either way, so if you aren't in the mood to toss the argument around, or if doing so will upset you, just let me know and I'll drop it

I actually LOVE discussing possibilities, as long as the debate doesn't devolve into personal attacks. I also usually don't have as firm an opinion as I often seem to have, and am always open to changing my mind when given a sound argument.

I think the lying started first, because Andy disliked himself.

Agreed, 100% , though it can't be just a matter of his being trans. I'm trans myself, and I know a fair number of trans people. Self-hatred for being trans is something many of us have gone through, but it never translated into the kind of absolute hatred for *everything* we were, and remorseless abuse of everyone around us, which Andy has been exhibiting for at least 15 years.

1.he was already doing a lot of "pretending" to compensate for having the wrong body

I only partially agree with that one. It's obvious, retrospectively, that one reason Andy hates himself so much is because he's trans. But back when he started abusing people on the net (when he was 15), he was presenting exclusively as cis straight female. Even his early infamous alter ego, Cyarra the child prostitute, was most definitely cis female. I have no idea when he became aware that he's trans, but what's for sure is that he was still firmly presenting as exclusively cis straight female when he started abusing people. So it doesn't feel justified to me to argue that he did all his pretending early on to compensate for having the wrong body, since none of his early pretending revolved around trans issues.

"pretending" to be in love/more in love/a great and loyal friend, etc, didn't seem like that big a deal and were means to an end (the end being "escape and change identity")

I completely agree that the end was, is, and always will be "escape and change identity", but I'm rather disturbed by the implication that faking genuine interest in other people is one logical consequence of that end. As I said, I know quite a few trans people, including several who transitioned late in life even though they knew early on they were trans, and I don't find this pattern in their life. The only thing some of them have done, is convince *themselves* they were (more) in love with someone (than they truly were), so they could get married and have a family like they were socially expected to. But downright faking friendships, or faking socially unapproved relationships (gay/lesbian relationships, like Andy did before he transitioned socially)? No way. That would have made no sense whatsoever for people desperate to hide that they were trans.

2. He's too narcissistic to keep his attention on another person for long, so no matter how good his intentions might be going into a relationship, dropping the other person is inevitable once he gets bored. I have no idea if he even understands that this ISN'T okay.

My opinion is far more radical on this matter. I don't think Andy is EVER interested in anyone but himself, nor that he EVER has good intentions when "befriending" someone. In fact, to be blunt: I don't think he sees other people as his equal, EVER. Other people are just potential tools, pets, cattle, slaves, and so on, for him, but not Human Beings like himself. He (or rather the false image he projects to himself of who he is) is the only one deserving of his own respect and attention, while being entitled to the admiration and subservience of all those lower forms of life that are People Out There.

3. He tries to impose his issues and hurts on other people.

That's typical Projection. I agree 1000% !

Like the thing where he makes other people re-enact his hurt/anger towards his poor parents, who probably didn't even know they were failing to be supportive of him because they didn't immediately understand that he was trans...and he's still not forgiven them, so he makes other people go through the same hurt/anger/cutting off their parents thing, over and over and over.

Oh, excellent point! But again, this underlines (in my eyes at least) how he doesn't give a shit about other people right from the start. Boredom, or losing interest in someone, can in no way justify putting anyone through that kind of abuse. Only strong negative feelings can explain that he would do that to people he calls friends: hatred, disdain, profound prejudice of some kind - or simply the fact that he doesn't see them as human beings inherently deserving of a respectful and fair treatment to begin with.

And one detail: I'm not sure he hates his parents so much as he hates himself. I wouldn't be surprised if it was *himself* he still hasn't forgiven, and not whatever his parents may or may not have done. After all, if he was okay with himself now, he wouldn't need to keep abusing people. But he does, which to me shows that he still hates himself, and makes me suspect that the lack of forgiveness you say he still has for his parents, is just another case of projection: he can't forgive himself for being who he is (not just trans, but the whole package), but he can't admit to that because he wants/needs to see himself as flawless, so he projects his self-hatred onto his parents, so he can hate them and refuse to forgive them instead.

Similarly, he hates his body and so he slyly sabotages the self esteem of the women who trust him (or not so slyly in the case of his blatant abuse of Abbey).

And Meg, right now, right under our eyes.

But I think his goal in life is "be anyone but myself, or at least, make everyone BELIEVE I'm someone else."

Agreed. Completely. And he's amply proven that there are no means he won't use to that end.

I actually LOVE discussing possibilities, as long as the debate doesn't devolve into personal attacks.

Me too, anon! I've just learned to check, because sometimes I am just idly discussing possibilities, and then belatedly find out the other person is feeling upset because we're arguing.

Agreed, 100% , though it can't be just a matter of his being trans. I'm trans myself, and I know a fair number of trans people. Self-hatred for being

This is something I've OFTEN wondered about re: Andy. I only know two trans people IRL, and a handful online, but NONE of them have his...problems. And okay, some of that is because they aren't raging sociopaths who treat other people like convenient props, but aside from that dramatic difference, they just seem...happier. Better adjusted. I mean, I have heard opinions ranging from "fine with my body even if it isn't what I'd have preferred" to "hate it and want to change it," but no trans person I've ever spoken to has sounded as if they hate their whole SELF.

But Andy's self-loathing appears bottomless. Or, rather, the number of things he'll hide/lie about/present a pretend version of is all over the map. Politics; degree of attraction to people; what he really thinks of particular body types; authors he admires...I've seen him lie about all of it. It's weird.

My opinion is far more radical on this matter. I don't think Andy is EVER interested in anyone but himself, nor that he EVER has good intentions when "befriending" someone. In fact, to be blunt: I don't think he sees other people as his equal, EVER. Other people are just potential tools, pets, cattle, slaves, and so on, for him, but not Human Beings like himself.

You could well be right. I haven't seen any evidence to contradict your opinion.

And Meg, right now, right under our eyes.

This. Completely. And I think the "under our eyes" part is also crucial, though I'm struggling to articulate it. I think abusing her, in a way his critics can see but cannot prevent, gives him more satisfaction than merely making use of her would. I think it gives him a sense of power to have his detractors state, again and again, what they see going on there, but to still have the ability to convince her otherwise.

I've just learned to check, because sometimes I am just idly discussing possibilities, and then belatedly find out the other person is feeling upset because we're arguing.

Oooh boy, do I know what you mean!

I mean, I have heard opinions ranging from "fine with my body even if it isn't what I'd have preferred" to "hate it and want to change it," but no trans person I've ever spoken to has sounded as if they hate their whole SELF.

Same here. I've never met or heard of a trans person who hated every single aspect of themselves just because they were trans (depression is another matter, whether or not it was initially created/encouraged by the gender dysphoria). There are a few trans people who are overwhelmed with *anger* towards people/society/their family/their friends/whoever and even themselves sometimes, because of how hard being trans makes their life in general. There are also too many trans people who are overcome with *despair*, convinced they will never find lasting happiness because being trans will always mess everything up, no matter what they try to do. And there can be internalized shame, too, including in trans people who are out and live as their true gender, but I've never seen it lead to such extensive and complete self-hatred. Andy is utterly unique in my experience in that regard, which is why I'm convinced that while being trans might be one factor among many for his self-hatred, it cannot be THE factor for it.

the number of things he'll hide/lie about/present a pretend version of is all over the map. Politics; degree of attraction to people; what he really thinks of particular body types; authors he admires...I've seen him lie about all of it. It's weird.

I don't know, it seems logical to me, in its own way. The way I see it, Andy doesn't want to be anyone in particular: he just wants to be Special. So he adapts himself to his current social environment, changing whichever parts of his exterior fake identity don't fit well enough to garner him the admiration he seeks. Almost *nothing* we've seen of him at any time has been real. Almost all of it has been fake, aimed at attracting the attention of the crowd he was in at that moment.

I think that's why it's so easy for him to flatly deny stuff he's done, and constantly rewrite history: because it's true that the character he's playing today, never did what that other character he was playing back then did. It's true! Who he pretends to be now never did what happened back then. It was someone else, another person he was pretending to be. And it wouldn't be fair to hold his present character responsible for the sins of his previous character, would it? He *knows* that's considered cheating by us lowly human beings, but 1) he doesn't care to play by our rules (quite the contrary: he expects us to accept to be ruled by his desires), and 2) he knows this tactic works on enough people anyway. So he plays it 110% and keeps getting away with everything. Why would he change a tactic that works so beautifully well?

I'm only talking about his *exterior* personality, though. Basically, he puts on characters like he puts on cosplay, but that doesn't change who he fundamentally is. The problem is that since he absolutely doesn't want to be himself, he's never out of costume. He's cosplaying 24/7, so we have to look at the common trends among his many characters to figure out what belongs to the real him. After 15 years of internet presence, it's starting to become obvious which same obsessions keep re-appearing: extreme misogyny, including body-shaming for *every* type of female body and blatant Madonna-Whore Complex; hyper-glorification of anything he considers "manly"; fixation on manpain, complete with the liberal use of Fridging Women, or male-on-female rape of the hero's love interest or other close female friend/family, to further the hero's mainpain; fetishization of child soldiers, child sexual abuse, and child abuse in general, all the way to (as you mentioned) making real people think they've gone through it when they haven't; preaching of loyalty to one's leader over everything else; and so on. Those are his *true* personality, the one he hides under the fake outer characters, but it keeps bleeding through every time.

And I think the "under our eyes" part is also crucial, though I'm struggling to articulate it. I think abusing her, in a way his critics can see but cannot prevent, gives him more satisfaction than merely making use of her would. I think it gives him a sense of power to have his detractors state, again and again, what they see going on there, but to still have the ability to convince her otherwise.

I agree completely. To me, that's part of his "hiding in plain sight" method: he can afford to literally gloat about some of the abuse he inflicts, because he knows that either people won't see it, or they'll be powerless to do anything if they do see it (because, unlike him, normal human beings have moral limits, things they won't do, so they won't and can't take the extreme steps that would be necessary to rescue his victims). Among other things, I'm sure he's the one who sent Meg here: she's always been very insistant about not wanting to get involved in The Wank, and she's almost always kept her word on that matter. So why would she suddenly show up on an anon meme dedicated to The Wank? Because he sent her here, to dangle her under our noses, make us hope (no matter how briefly) that maybe we would finally have a chance to get through to her, even as he knew that not only there was no chance of that, but she would come away from the experience even more convinced that the "anti-Andy" people are just bad, hateful and hurtful. He's making a public show of manipulating her, like he did with Abbey for example, and yes, that's crucial and incredibly sick.

NA

he can afford to literally gloat about some of the abuse he inflicts, because he knows that either people won't see it, or they'll be powerless to do anything if they do see it

This is actually pretty common with abusers--I know I've seen it with child molesters. They will sometimes escalate their attacks and become even worse after being investigated by the cops, because they know that it won't come to anything and nobody will believe it. (I've been reading about Earl Bradley, who video-taped himself raping and choking over a hundred toddlers while nobody did anything, despite multiple complaints. He got WORSE after the cops investigated him.)

I only know two trans people IRL, and a handful online, but NONE of them have his...problems.

If it helps, I'm trans, have a background somewhat similar to the more plausible narrative he peddles, and I have yet to do any of his shit. And I hated myself enough to try and commit suicide by slowly starving myself to death and then jumping off a bridge. (The starvation was because I believed I didn't deserve a better death.)

I honestly don't give a shit if he hates himself. I don't care WHY he does this crap at all, because that's part of his shit. He always wants you to try and figure out his pain, what could cause him to be such a monster. "Don't you want to know my evil plan?" NO. DUDE, I DON'T CARE WHY YOU'RE A FLAMING SHITPILE. I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR PRECIOUS FUCKING FEELINGS.

He loves to do that, make the focus about HIS feelings, HIS thoughts, how he sees the world. He doesn't need to look inside himself; he needs to STOP and grow the fuck up, if you ask me.

NA

+1000000

I too am a trans person and also a CSA survivor, which has led to me harbouring some intense self-hate over the years. Yet I've never done shit Andy's done or even contemplated it. Like, I'm not a well-adjusted person and I've lied about stuff (my gender, childhood, etc.), but I've never ended up leading a cult of personality. Just plain lying is different to actual manipulation.

And like AIRT said, it doesn't really matter why Andy keeps on abusing other people. It matters that he keeps on doing it. Like, theorising and wondering is all dandy and good, but imo when we're talking about Andy it's usually just derailing instead of enlightening. After all that's exactly what Andy wants people to do: to wonder about his Most Interesting Backgroundstory and Precious Feelings, instead of how he's still fucking people over.

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