Yes, exactly! People often get involved with cults when going through some kind of emotional turmoil; that doesn't make them irrational. Spiritual people and "seekers" might be more susceptible to some kinds of spiritual/fantastical cults; that doesn't make them irrational. Cult leaders use a lot of the same manipulative tactics that standard one-on-one abusers use; is every DV survivor irrational, too, because they're affected by gaslighting or control of their environment?
People think that cults, like scams, could never happen to them and could only happen to people too dumb to realize they're being fleeced, because in hindsight or from the outside it's easy to recognize what's off about something. If you sum up Scientology as a group that believes that we're all alien ghosts from a different galaxy that were dumped into volcanoes and have now become attached to physical bodies, they sound completely wild. If you describe them as a group dedicated to helping people better understand their mental state and move past their traumas, and to making the world a better place through individual personal growth and activism, they sound like a personal development program. (Not to mention, of course, that most spiritual beliefs can sound irrational if you put the right spin on them.)
Andy, like any other effective cult leader, didn't jump straight to claims like "I can be possessed by fictional characters and have mystical powers" with his targets. He gave them more easily digestible ideas first and built up to things like making a river flow backwards.
It's also so fucking annoying -- understandable, but annoying -- that people think a cult can only be a set of beliefs that are way out there, like aliens will come for the chosen few, or people can become fictional characters. Cults can be and are built up around political or personal development ideas just as easily, and "rational adults" aren't on the lookout for cult tactics from self-help gurus or social justice advocates.
It's also so fucking annoying -- understandable, but annoying -- that people think a cult can only be a set of beliefs that are way out there, like aliens will come for the chosen few, or people can become fictional characters. Cults can be and are built up around political or personal development ideas just as easily, and "rational adults" aren't on the lookout for cult tactics from self-help gurus or social justice advocates.
This is really good point, and why it's so frustrating to see this Chris guy being so convinced that he's so rational and logical and that Andy could never start a cult among rational adults. I mean - sure, he hasn't tried to make you think he's Frodo. But somehow you're still a grown-ass man getting into heated arguments with total strangers to defend him; you're still convinced that it's you and Andy against the world; you're still regurgitating talking points and phrases straight from his mouth. He's using the exact same tactics to the exact same ends, but you think its fine because he hasn't mentioned the mindhole yet.
Another point: isolation isn't always "If you talk to anyone else about this, I'll kill you."
Sometimes it comes in the form of, "Oh, you're the only people who really understand me, y'know? Everyone else is so quick to judge me, but you're understanding and open-minded and smart and blah blah blah blah." Basically, encouraging his Useful Idiots to isolate themselves from all the people who are trying to make them see sense.
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Re: Andy defenders going after Abbey
(Anonymous) 2018-06-27 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)Yes, exactly! People often get involved with cults when going through some kind of emotional turmoil; that doesn't make them irrational. Spiritual people and "seekers" might be more susceptible to some kinds of spiritual/fantastical cults; that doesn't make them irrational. Cult leaders use a lot of the same manipulative tactics that standard one-on-one abusers use; is every DV survivor irrational, too, because they're affected by gaslighting or control of their environment?
People think that cults, like scams, could never happen to them and could only happen to people too dumb to realize they're being fleeced, because in hindsight or from the outside it's easy to recognize what's off about something. If you sum up Scientology as a group that believes that we're all alien ghosts from a different galaxy that were dumped into volcanoes and have now become attached to physical bodies, they sound completely wild. If you describe them as a group dedicated to helping people better understand their mental state and move past their traumas, and to making the world a better place through individual personal growth and activism, they sound like a personal development program. (Not to mention, of course, that most spiritual beliefs can sound irrational if you put the right spin on them.)
Andy, like any other effective cult leader, didn't jump straight to claims like "I can be possessed by fictional characters and have mystical powers" with his targets. He gave them more easily digestible ideas first and built up to things like making a river flow backwards.
It's also so fucking annoying -- understandable, but annoying -- that people think a cult can only be a set of beliefs that are way out there, like aliens will come for the chosen few, or people can become fictional characters. Cults can be and are built up around political or personal development ideas just as easily, and "rational adults" aren't on the lookout for cult tactics from self-help gurus or social justice advocates.
Re: Andy defenders going after Abbey
(Anonymous) 2018-06-28 12:04 am (UTC)(link)This is really good point, and why it's so frustrating to see this Chris guy being so convinced that he's so rational and logical and that Andy could never start a cult among rational adults. I mean - sure, he hasn't tried to make you think he's Frodo. But somehow you're still a grown-ass man getting into heated arguments with total strangers to defend him; you're still convinced that it's you and Andy against the world; you're still regurgitating talking points and phrases straight from his mouth. He's using the exact same tactics to the exact same ends, but you think its fine because he hasn't mentioned the mindhole yet.
Re: Andy defenders going after Abbey
(Anonymous) 2018-06-28 01:42 am (UTC)(link)Another point: isolation isn't always "If you talk to anyone else about this, I'll kill you."
Sometimes it comes in the form of, "Oh, you're the only people who really understand me, y'know? Everyone else is so quick to judge me, but you're understanding and open-minded and smart and blah blah blah blah." Basically, encouraging his Useful Idiots to isolate themselves from all the people who are trying to make them see sense.