I appreciate your concern and deeply regret not giving it more weight this summer. I will say, though, that I disagree that Necromommycon raised "great big glaring red flags" from the time that she first became involved in Andy-blogging (2014). She never tried to hide that she had been friends with Andy, and from the time that she read about "fish skin rodeo" she appeared to be disgusted with his cruelty and angry that she'd misjudged him. She was consistently supportive of Abbey et al. after that. The 2015 fake-channeling comment was troubling, yes, but we didn't know that was her until she confessed to it three years later. The "Andy redemption narrative" is a much more recent development.
I've been digging through archives of her Carlanime and Necromommycon tumblrs, and while there are little things here and there that give me pause, that's only in hindsight. I have yet to find anything prior to this summer that makes me wonder why I didn't see this coming. And believe me, I am looking very hard.
DA For what it's worth, Teablogger, I agree with you and thought hateboner-for-Necromommycon was super over the top and aggressive at the time. Someone can be CORRECT without being CREDIBLE or appropriate in their approach.
geeeee I wouldn't have been "aggressive" because people just were straight up ignoring - or DEFENDING - necromommycon's shoddy behaviour? maybe?? possibly??? survivors who are tired of having to shout over and over again to be taken seriously can reach a snapping point. you can say I wasn't "credible", but that's positioning the situation as starting with me. it didn't - it started with necro, and with the established trend in AA circles of treating anyone with a criticism as a minion of andy. my "aggression" stemmed from my anger at necro's total callousness and this community's willingness to ignore it and then behave like I was unreasonable and "a spy" for not ignoring it... and because everyone else agreed to ignore it, we were then blessed with a truly ghastly rape denial and a whole bunch of awful victim blaming. so uhhhhh, how much of an overreaction was it REALLY?
Look, you were right dude, you don't have to prove the previous poster's point quite so well. The OTT hysteria is part of why you got flagged as a problem poster.
and acting like the "OTT hysteria" occurs in a vacuum, not as a response to an overall failure of conduct and standards, is just the sort of victim-blaming response any 'hysterical' survivor gets when trying to name shit, so good on you for continuing to feed the problem.
we're having a private correspondence about this, but for others - especially those who also had concerns but pushed them away because no one else seemed to -
I haven't kept any records or references, this is all from memory. my impressions of her were gleaned from reading her writings over several years. I am an abstract thinker, which may be why I spotted certain patterns - and without references, it's hard for me to illustrate to you exactly where I spotted certain flags. so I don't have citations and I do understand if people feel this is too vague or speculative to satisfy them - it's basically collating lots of little moments into a generalised impression.
another friend of mine who follows andy's shennanigans also had doubts about her for the same reasons and we often mused over our observations together - we had many of the same ones, which was very reassuring to both of us. as for why we identified these things where others didn't - it could just be a matter of individual experiences giving us a certain perspective, or being more objective in certain ways. I don't know. I do know we've been talking about her being dodgy for a couple of years and have both had real misgivings about her agenda.
- her original post on livejournal about it really started it I think - it's been a while since I read it, but there was always something that seemed a little off to me about it in tone - I can't even remember exactly what way now, if it was too gleeful or if there was apologism or that she super downplayed his behaviour - which she has always done - but it did make me think she wasn't a very nice person. and yes, someone can be unpleasant and still not be an abuse apologist, but in context with everything else that emerged over the years...
- there was always, always an undertone of admiration for andy, even when she seemed to think he was pathetic, or an asshole. there was just always this vague sense of 'wow look what he got away with!' like on some level she really did believe he was this bright, brilliant genius, and that she was entertained by the way he'd manipulated people. I can't point to a concrete example - it is the aggregation of all the ways she's spoken about andy over the years.
- always downplaying his behaviour. always. there were multiple instances where she straight up SAID that she didn't think he was dangerous, that she thought it was all a bit overblown, that he wasn't malicious, that he really was a cool, interesting guy, etc etc etc. she had to be reminded, a couple of times, of the specific harm he'd caused people. it never really seemed to matter to her though - like she couldn't hold onto that info, it was always slipping away from her in favour of her willingness to forgive andy. from where I sat, she clearly didn't take what he had done to others that seriously, even if she seemed willing to play the game.
- remaining friends with him. sorry, but if you truly comprehend andy's behaviour and its impacts, you don't maintain a friendship - or you commit yourself to assisting them through a genuine reformation process. that she was happy enough to have andy in her life as a 'fun, interesting guy' even knowing what he'd done to others and without expressing any real interest in holding him accountable in his actual material life was a big reveal to me, tbh. if I truly cared about someone like that and didn't want to give them up - I would fight to get them to own their shit. participating in a public dialogue that's more about making others aware of his behaviour is not the kind of personal, present and active support abusers need to change their ways. and if you don't care enough about them to do that, why would you care enough to keep them as a friend - especially if they've done the really heinous things andy has done? how can you be friends with someone knowing they'd done things like that? even if you don't believe yourself to be in any danger - how can you not feel horrified, especially knowing no true amends had been made? I guess everyone's mileage may vary, but it's very difficult for me to fathom and really unsettled me from the moment she revealed it.
- her flippancy - to andy's behaviour, to others, to her own well-being, just in general. she affected a massive 'none of this really means anything to me' vibe, which was always a bit puzzling cos how do you involve yourself in a discussion of an abuser's pathological abusing of others, and not fucking care? there was a time her concern and regard for andy's survivors seemed genuine, but as time went on it seemed more like something she did because she knew she should... perfunctory and pat. their pain always seemed the least of her concerns. that she constantly positioned herself as impervious to andy's abuse didn't just seem naive or arrogant to me - not that she was too smart to be abused - something a lot of people mistakenly believe -but because she was a match for him. because of her lack of caring.
- deleting her old blog, which she did because it had 'served its purpose' and she'd decided andy didn't deserve to be 'hounded' anymore. she deleted it out of consideration to andy, for his sake. another big reveal. it's not wrong to want to be kind to people and give them second chances - but as has been established all along, andy has shown no genuine reformation, just more attempts to manipulate and con people. again, that she saw it as important to ease up on him when he'd done nothing to change or truly account for his abusiveness - said a lot.
- her own history as a popular fanfic alternate universe creator, which a lot of googling about when my suspicions really flared up earlier this year led to discussions on FFA that strongly implied she had wielded control over a small group of loyal followers to her verse. hardly the first fanbrat to have that kind of history, but in context with everything else... suggestive. she wouldn't be the first person to feel sorry for an asshole because of a perceived commonality, but it always felt to me like there was more going on - that her sympathy was partly because she thought she really could've ended up like andy, or had been a lot like him.
- constantly low-key comparing herself to andy in a way that suggested she was thinking of something specific from her own past yes, many of us have discussed our own histories of getting over-invested in fantasy worlds, or faking chanelling and what have you - but again, there was the existing undertone of admiration, plus the constant vague suggestions she or someone she is close to might be a sociopath or narcissist themselves.
- how quickly she always defaulted to sympathising with andy or talking about him in positive terms until she was reminded about the extent of his behaviour. look, you can have personal feelings about an abuser. for complex reasons. but show some fucking respect to the people he abused when talking about him publicly! again, that callousness was always present. I understand andy's survivors themselves may not have experienced it that way, but I do see this as one more piece of the puzzle, personally.
there's more, I think, but I've been writing this for a while as it is. if it comes to mind, I'll post it.
as I said - a lot of this is speculative. but all of it is what I saw in how and what she wrote and the way she engaged, and what informed my opinion about necromommycon as unreliable and ultimately preferencing andy.
now, from what teablogger and abbey have said, there was more going on behind the scenes than I was witness to. they got insight into necro's character and nature that I never did. I am hesitant to dismiss the kindness and empathy she showed them outright. I don't think it was all fake. I do think she had genuine regard and care for his survivors and for the AA bloggers. but I think she held that simultaneously as secretly thinking it was all a bit of an overreaction and that andy really wasn't that bad. I think she wanted to see andy held accountable for being shitty, but because she doesn't really believe he's an abuser, she thinks the degree of accountability called for is disproportionate. I think she recognised how harmful the cult was, but low key blames the survivors at least partly as well. I think she genuinely liked abbey and TTB, and also genuinely liked andy, and had these feelings alongside secretly looking down on all of them. and now we all know, she definitely thinks physical abuse is worse than emotional, and that there's "rape" and then there's "rape rape". and clearly she realised that these conflicting feelings would have material impacts on other people, cos she knew well enough not to make those posts on her blog. I suspect she may have genuinely thought eventually she'd create a bridge between everyone, and genuinely doesn't understand why and how that isn't possible, cos she just refuses to recognise the scope of harm he has caused to people and has a whole bunch of misplaced sympathy for him. how can she be witness to such comprehensive info about his behaviour, and still be sympathetic towards him? that's what got me - it was always there, that she really didn't think he was that bad. that really said something to me.
Uh, are you sure she confessed to it? That's very strange if true, because it's not her fucking comment. It's mine. I can't remember if I used a proxy to post that out of the pure shame of it, but I doubt it. I'm a regular commenter here and though I've moved, the city I live in hasn't changed. Mods should be able to confirm that if necessary (though I'd appreciate it if they didn't name the city itself).
Can you provide me with a link to her confession, if one exists?
No apology needed, TB. I appreciate your work. I only regret that I might have come off as distressed in my response here. I promise you I wasn't, only very confused - mainly as to why anyone else would want to claim such a horrible story. That's where the emotion came from, not your honest mistake.
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(Anonymous) 2018-11-07 02:07 am (UTC)(link)I've been digging through archives of her Carlanime and Necromommycon tumblrs, and while there are little things here and there that give me pause, that's only in hindsight. I have yet to find anything prior to this summer that makes me wonder why I didn't see this coming. And believe me, I am looking very hard.
TB
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(Anonymous) 2018-11-07 02:35 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-07 02:55 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-07 03:04 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-07 03:39 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-07 04:33 am (UTC)(link)I haven't kept any records or references, this is all from memory. my impressions of her were gleaned from reading her writings over several years. I am an abstract thinker, which may be why I spotted certain patterns - and without references, it's hard for me to illustrate to you exactly where I spotted certain flags. so I don't have citations and I do understand if people feel this is too vague or speculative to satisfy them - it's basically collating lots of little moments into a generalised impression.
another friend of mine who follows andy's shennanigans also had doubts about her for the same reasons and we often mused over our observations together - we had many of the same ones, which was very reassuring to both of us. as for why we identified these things where others didn't - it could just be a matter of individual experiences giving us a certain perspective, or being more objective in certain ways. I don't know. I do know we've been talking about her being dodgy for a couple of years and have both had real misgivings about her agenda.
- her original post on livejournal about it really started it I think - it's been a while since I read it, but there was always something that seemed a little off to me about it in tone - I can't even remember exactly what way now, if it was too gleeful or if there was apologism or that she super downplayed his behaviour - which she has always done - but it did make me think she wasn't a very nice person. and yes, someone can be unpleasant and still not be an abuse apologist, but in context with everything else that emerged over the years...
- there was always, always an undertone of admiration for andy, even when she seemed to think he was pathetic, or an asshole. there was just always this vague sense of 'wow look what he got away with!' like on some level she really did believe he was this bright, brilliant genius, and that she was entertained by the way he'd manipulated people. I can't point to a concrete example - it is the aggregation of all the ways she's spoken about andy over the years.
- always downplaying his behaviour. always. there were multiple instances where she straight up SAID that she didn't think he was dangerous, that she thought it was all a bit overblown, that he wasn't malicious, that he really was a cool, interesting guy, etc etc etc. she had to be reminded, a couple of times, of the specific harm he'd caused people. it never really seemed to matter to her though - like she couldn't hold onto that info, it was always slipping away from her in favour of her willingness to forgive andy. from where I sat, she clearly didn't take what he had done to others that seriously, even if she seemed willing to play the game.
- remaining friends with him. sorry, but if you truly comprehend andy's behaviour and its impacts, you don't maintain a friendship - or you commit yourself to assisting them through a genuine reformation process. that she was happy enough to have andy in her life as a 'fun, interesting guy' even knowing what he'd done to others and without expressing any real interest in holding him accountable in his actual material life was a big reveal to me, tbh. if I truly cared about someone like that and didn't want to give them up - I would fight to get them to own their shit. participating in a public dialogue that's more about making others aware of his behaviour is not the kind of personal, present and active support abusers need to change their ways. and if you don't care enough about them to do that, why would you care enough to keep them as a friend - especially if they've done the really heinous things andy has done? how can you be friends with someone knowing they'd done things like that? even if you don't believe yourself to be in any danger - how can you not feel horrified, especially knowing no true amends had been made? I guess everyone's mileage may vary, but it's very difficult for me to fathom and really unsettled me from the moment she revealed it.
- her flippancy - to andy's behaviour, to others, to her own well-being, just in general. she affected a massive 'none of this really means anything to me' vibe, which was always a bit puzzling cos how do you involve yourself in a discussion of an abuser's pathological abusing of others, and not fucking care? there was a time her concern and regard for andy's survivors seemed genuine, but as time went on it seemed more like something she did because she knew she should... perfunctory and pat. their pain always seemed the least of her concerns. that she constantly positioned herself as impervious to andy's abuse didn't just seem naive or arrogant to me - not that she was too smart to be abused - something a lot of people mistakenly believe -but because she was a match for him. because of her lack of caring.
- deleting her old blog, which she did because it had 'served its purpose' and she'd decided andy didn't deserve to be 'hounded' anymore. she deleted it out of consideration to andy, for his sake. another big reveal. it's not wrong to want to be kind to people and give them second chances - but as has been established all along, andy has shown no genuine reformation, just more attempts to manipulate and con people. again, that she saw it as important to ease up on him when he'd done nothing to change or truly account for his abusiveness - said a lot.
- her own history as a popular fanfic alternate universe creator, which a lot of googling about when my suspicions really flared up earlier this year led to discussions on FFA that strongly implied she had wielded control over a small group of loyal followers to her verse. hardly the first fanbrat to have that kind of history, but in context with everything else... suggestive. she wouldn't be the first person to feel sorry for an asshole because of a perceived commonality, but it always felt to me like there was more going on - that her sympathy was partly because she thought she really could've ended up like andy, or had been a lot like him.
- constantly low-key comparing herself to andy in a way that suggested she was thinking of something specific from her own past yes, many of us have discussed our own histories of getting over-invested in fantasy worlds, or faking chanelling and what have you - but again, there was the existing undertone of admiration, plus the constant vague suggestions she or someone she is close to might be a sociopath or narcissist themselves.
- how quickly she always defaulted to sympathising with andy or talking about him in positive terms until she was reminded about the extent of his behaviour. look, you can have personal feelings about an abuser. for complex reasons. but show some fucking respect to the people he abused when talking about him publicly! again, that callousness was always present. I understand andy's survivors themselves may not have experienced it that way, but I do see this as one more piece of the puzzle, personally.
there's more, I think, but I've been writing this for a while as it is. if it comes to mind, I'll post it.
as I said - a lot of this is speculative. but all of it is what I saw in how and what she wrote and the way she engaged, and what informed my opinion about necromommycon as unreliable and ultimately preferencing andy.
now, from what teablogger and abbey have said, there was more going on behind the scenes than I was witness to. they got insight into necro's character and nature that I never did. I am hesitant to dismiss the kindness and empathy she showed them outright. I don't think it was all fake. I do think she had genuine regard and care for his survivors and for the AA bloggers. but I think she held that simultaneously as secretly thinking it was all a bit of an overreaction and that andy really wasn't that bad. I think she wanted to see andy held accountable for being shitty, but because she doesn't really believe he's an abuser, she thinks the degree of accountability called for is disproportionate. I think she recognised how harmful the cult was, but low key blames the survivors at least partly as well. I think she genuinely liked abbey and TTB, and also genuinely liked andy, and had these feelings alongside secretly looking down on all of them. and now we all know, she definitely thinks physical abuse is worse than emotional, and that there's "rape" and then there's "rape rape". and clearly she realised that these conflicting feelings would have material impacts on other people, cos she knew well enough not to make those posts on her blog. I suspect she may have genuinely thought eventually she'd create a bridge between everyone, and genuinely doesn't understand why and how that isn't possible, cos she just refuses to recognise the scope of harm he has caused to people and has a whole bunch of misplaced sympathy for him. how can she be witness to such comprehensive info about his behaviour, and still be sympathetic towards him? that's what got me - it was always there, that she really didn't think he was that bad. that really said something to me.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-09 10:57 am (UTC)(link)Curious nonny is curious. Can you elaborate on this, or provide links?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-10 04:19 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-08 03:48 pm (UTC)(link)Can you provide me with a link to her confession, if one exists?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-08 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)Here is her confession: https://returnofthenecromommycon.tumblr.com/post/176238996161/notreallyhappeningtoday-kumquatwriter
This was one of her fake-channeling stories: https://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/272.html?thread=276752#cmt276752
And this was the other: https://tf-talk.dreamwidth.org/272.html?thread=279056#cmt279056
Again, very, very sorry. I'll post a correction to my blog.
TB
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-11-09 08:02 am (UTC)(link)