continued Thatfucker discussion

[anonniemouse]

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm going to disagree with the above commenter who claims it's "invasive" to say Brittany was "off". It's not speculation; it's a demonstrable fact. It was Brittany who sent that undead shaman wizard emails about a 16th century dead guy trying to "eat" a real woman's children, revealing both their names and their address. She was "off" in the same sense that Abbey was, ie, she was the victim of a sociopathic manipulator who systematically destroyed her grip on reality. As a result, she made some terrible choices.

To discuss these facts or her relationship with Andrew Blake (the one who posted that video, by the way) is not to impune or disrespect her. Andy used Brittany while she was alive and he continues to use her memory after death, essentially rewriting history to whatever suits his purposes at the moment. You're playing right into his hands if any "speculation" about Andy's use and abuse of Brittany suddenly constitutes disrespecting the dead.

[anonniemouse]

The difference is that Abbey is here to tell her story and Brittany is not. Discussion of Brittany is not off-limits by any means, but we need to draw a line somewhere and too much speculation feels invasive when Brittany isn't able to say anything at all.

That said, situations like this cropping up is why we need at least one other mod here. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I can mod a community like this with only my own opinions to guide me.

[(Anonymous)]

Of course, but the offended post seemed to be taking exception to the statement that Brittany seemed "off". That's not speculation; that's an interpretation, and one that's backed up by facts that came to light elsewhere.

Some of the stuff about their relationship is speculation, but frankly, when Andy has been caught lying about Brittany not buying into his shtick and has changed his story about the nature of relationship time and time again, I don't think "speculation" about whether he's telling the truth is uncalled for.

I do agree that we should abstain from stating speculation as facts, but actually, I haven't seen anyone do that.

[anonniemouse]

I've gone back to review the thread and have decided to unfreeze it.

I don't personally feel that the comments there are disrespectful, and seeing as I'm the only mod we have at the moment I'm going to have to go with my gut on this one.

[(Anonymous)]

I appreciate this is a difficult job but it's really obvious you're giving into pressure right now rather than really looking at this objectively and caringly.

Brittany is DEAD. And there is a frankly ghoulish and voyeuristic discussion going on about the agony behind her smile, about how "off" she is, about how her emotions are false... none of these things are okay.

That Brittany was abused by Andy is not in question. Testimony by those closest to her - important. Scrutiny and dissection of Andy's claims - vital. Circulation of information about how he abused her/exploits her memory/etc - essential.

But I honestly don't understand how people here can take footage of a dead girl they never met and never spoke to, presume to analyse it and deduce what she was thinking and feeling and make claims to that effect (they all were but the Scientology one obviously so) and not see how grotesque that is.

[(Anonymous)]

But I honestly don't understand how people here can take footage of a dead girl they never met and never spoke to

You don't know this. This is an assumption.

presume to analyse it and deduce what she was thinking and feeling and make claims to that effect (they all were but the Scientology one obviously so) and not see how grotesque that is.

Question: do you think Brittany was content to believe that it was up to her to defend innocent children from a horrific death? Do you for one moment imagine this was the only instance of Andy keeping her awake at night with claims it was up to them to avert a terrible disaster?

I'll admit this is "speculation" and "presumption", but unless Brittany was as sociopathic as Andy is (which I don't believe), there's no way her time with him wasn't stressful. There's no way there wasn't "agony" involved. For god's sake, how would you feel if the very lives of children were placed on your shoulders? I don't know if you know this, but she had many little siblings she frequently cared for. To say that she went through hell with Andy isn't disrespectful. If anything, saying she was "off" is an understatement of the emotional torment she must have endured.

A torment which, if you recall, Andy has claimed didn't exist due to her not buying into his bullshit.

The comparison to other manipulated cult victims (including CoS victims) is absolutely on point. Even Abbey has said as much. Really, how much different is there between undead shaman wizards and the spirits of undead aliens? No one would pick this up from the video alone, but in context and taken with everything else we know, it ceases to be frivolous speculation.

Brittany is DEAD. And there is a frankly ghoulish and voyeuristic discussion going on about the agony behind her smile, about how "off" she is, about how her emotions are false... none of these things are okay.

To call this voyeuristic or ghoulish implies that people are taking some kind of perverse pleasure in the matter. I don't see that at all, and frankly, while you may not agree with the nature of the discussion, accusing people of essentially "doing it for kicks" is a pretty sickening accusation.

[(Anonymous)]

Brittany was the victim of someone who had run a cult, and who was repeating his behavior with DAYD. Victims of cults often have this affect. There is a reason for it, and it is that they are victims. Repeating the testimony of someone who was a cult victim (Jason Beghe) in order to explain a common affect seen among cult victims is something I find invaluable.

In the wider world, victims of cults are consistently blamed for their victimization. They're made fun of for what's happening to them, and that expression in particular is mocked all the time. And so they end up feeling they have nowhere to turn, since the world outside is hostile to them. Shining a light on cult patterns, and how their victims end up in similar places mentally, is something I find invaluable, because it increases sympathy for victims. Jason Beghe was the victim of a cult, and he knows what he's talking about. Seeing a parallel between what he says and what happens to other cult victims -- well, I think it's not only natural, but necessary. While we keep pretending these are isolated incidents that only happen to stupid people, nothing will change.

I am seeing a LOT of assumptions as to people's motivations. There may be good reasons not to analyze Brittany in this way, but so far the people objecting are assigning emotions and motivations to others, and then saying those assumed emotions and motivations are bad. Assumption of bad faith is a really huge problem.

[(Anonymous)]

OK, is it worse to analyse footage of Brittany talking, or Tumblr posts of Andy saying things Brittany might never have said? She can't speak for herself now, so yeah, it is partly her own evidence, and maybe deserves to be listened to for that alone.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this is the right decision. Thanks for all your efforts modding so far!

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't see anything wrong with the discussion I saw last night. In fact, I thought it was quite valuable and respectful. I can't find it today - can't tell if it was removed or if I haven't had enough coffee - but it is odd to see this being an issue.

-KQ

[anonniemouse]

As I said upthread, this is going to be a really tricky area for me to mod and I know already I won't always get it right. I'm committed to remaining respectful of Brittany and was initially horrified that someone felt that wasn't happening here. But the last thing I want to do is cut off a discussion that needs to be had, and I truly believe Andy's abuse of Brittany and her memory deserves to have attention called to it.

The thread in question was frozen, not deleted. I'm going to go back and review it now that I'm not running around like mad at work and have some time on my hands.

[(Anonymous)]

you should be horrified, because it's not happening here. this insistence that anything that is a "matter of public record" is subject to any kind of speculation or "interpretation" is bullshit and it is unethical. That video upset me to the point of tears. so did the wildly and grossly speculative comments on her state of mind and the presumption to know what was going through her head that happened here.
and equal bullshit is the idea that calling for some boundaries and respect in our discussions is somehow "giving in" to andy. no. it is not.

[(Anonymous)]

I do feel certain parties have a habit of conflating interpretation with objective fact, but come the hell on.

[(Anonymous)]

From upthread:

Question: do you think Brittany was content to believe that it was up to her to defend innocent children from a horrific death? Do you for one moment imagine this was the only instance of Andy keeping her awake at night with claims it was up to them to avert a terrible disaster?

I'll admit this is "speculation" and "presumption", but unless Brittany was as sociopathic as Andy is (which I don't believe), there's no way her time with him wasn't stressful. There's no way there wasn't "agony" involved. For god's sake, how would you feel if the very lives of children were placed on your shoulders? I don't know if you know this, but she had many little siblings she frequently cared for. To say that she went through hell with Andy isn't disrespectful. If anything, saying she was "off" is an understatement of the emotional torment she must have endured.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, its a hard job, which is why I laughed darkly when I saw a mention on FFA that they'd sort if invited me to mod TF discussion. Oh hell no, I wouldn't want the job! But since my name was in your reply I thought I'd weigh in.

The hardest part IMO I'd probably going to be you learning what level of people judging *you* and what you do/n't mod. People WILL tattle to mods - and sometimes it will be TF or one of his defenders. If you have IP tracking on it can be helpful for that - you can identify trolls over time and be aware of tat tendency. But discussion/debate is important too, as is talking about things that are uncomfortable, personal, intimate and speculative. It happens.

You're clearly very receptive to feedback and obviously trying your damndest. Just take a deep breath. This comm is going to have growing pains like it found Leonardo Di Caprio in a dumpster (80s tv reference FTW). Figuring out how threads should work, modding issues, inevitable trolling and harassment. Most anon comms die off, usually pretty quickly. I think this one could make it, and be a useful resource for discussion and archiving. Just keep breathing.

-KQ

[(Anonymous)]

I want to thank you for how you've handled this, because there's no way this discussion would even have occurred on FFA. Everything would have been shut down immediately because the mods don't have the patience to deal with it, or don't want to wrangle with the issues.

[(Anonymous)]

Odd that someone would call for some boundaries around what people speculate about a dead girl's thoughts during recorded footage? come on.

[(Anonymous)]

Anon, can you clarify exactly what was said that had you crying? Because I don't see anything in the thread that, frankly, would be so upsetting given that the context is "we know she was in a close relationship with a serial manipulator who has since been lying about that relationship."

[(Anonymous)]

There are absolutely are boundaries about Brittany's life, and since this is a TF community, they probably revolve around keeping discussion of Brittany limited to Andy's involvement with her and the subsequent fallout.

These boundaries have been adhered to. All the discussion I saw was essentially, "This victim of a known manipulator who broke from reality seems/may be similar to other victims of manipulation who broke from reality and suffered as a result."

I'm going to need you to explain your reasoning about why this is so awful, instead claiming "it's just obvious" or invoking emotion as others have done.

[(Anonymous)]

From just above where the video was posted - discussion being limited, in the thread in question:

It's disgusting. It's unforgivable. Brittany was a real person, and she was fucking murdered. She was not a character in one of his fucked up roleplays. She was a human being with a family and friends and people who loved her; people who are potentionally still being hurt whenever he decides to namedrop her and wants to act like it's because they were starcrossed lovers.

He does not get to invoke her name every time he wants to garner support for his current crazy scheme or draw attention to his latest pet project. He does not get to re-write the person she actually was just because it bolsters his bullshit narrative.

That seems a lot more respectful than the screeching about "boundaries"

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I am fucking out of here. I'm the one that was being implied to being an asshole and for somehow letting Andy off the hook and I get yelled at and frozen for sharing what my parents goddamn did? Thanks a lot. Sorry for you know getting upset for being shit on.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I call troll.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

+1

Either troll or unable to constructively participate in this discussion. Either way, good call on booting them.

(frozen comment)

[anonniemouse]

Yeah, I'm thinking so.

(frozen comment) MOD

[(Anonymous)]

Bye!