tf_talk | continued Thatfucker discussion

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continued Thatfucker discussion

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

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Thanks for explaining!

Wow, that must have been interesting. If you don't mind me asking, at what point did you stop that friendship? Like was it something he said/did to you, or did you simply find out about his past?

No pressure at all to answer and I don't mean to pry, I'm just curious.

No worries, anon, you're not prying. It's just slightly difficult to answer in a way that makes sense.

I knew about his past going in, sort of. I knew most of the well-known, wanked about parts. When I made my LJ post (which I should link you to; it probably makes me look like an idiot, but that's okay) Abbey and Jeanine had begun the process of talking to each other, and I felt sorry for Andy. (Wow. It looks epically dumb written out.)

It's hard to answer the "at what point I stopped the friendship" part, because while there is one obvious point when I stopped contacting him (after Abbey posted about a bodyshaming thing he used to put her through), it's not as though I hate him now or anything. I just can't enjoy his "company" (or whatever the word is when it's internet-and-mail) the way I used to.

And on the other side, of course, I don't know if he ever actually felt I was a friend, or if I was just a convenient mouthpiece.

Here's the link to my LJ post, anon. http://necromommycon.livejournal.com/23757.html

AYRT

Thanks for the additional information!

I read your LJ post and I'm not at all surprised Andy came scuttling out of the woodwork to befriend you.

Yeah, in retrospect I can see why, too. It was an ill-advised post in many ways.
But at the time my concern was that I should say something (unflocked) because I didn't want to be mentally re-assessing Andy behind the scenes when I'd been supporting Turimel in public. I didn't want to feel like I was sneakily thinking more kindly of him.
The last thing I expected was that he, Cfc, and some anons would pop up in my inbox.

Did you ever respond to that long, crazy email he sent you?

I did, though terribly inadequately, with a sympathetic email beginning:

"That was quite a lengthy read (and in the middle of it I had to go feed lunch to the little people, which is why there's been a delay).

In a strange way, you've lucked out in sharing your story with me, because like the song, my give a damn's busted. I don't mean that in any unkind way: it's not meant as "you're horrible, I don't care about you." It's just that in a fundamental way, I don't mind making room for unusual realities, or for unusual confabulations, or for necessary fictions; people should, I think, have space to reinvent themselves as needed, and it's nobody's damn business as long as it's hurting no one."

At the time, of course, I had no idea what was going on with the DAYDians, or of the full extent of what had gone on with Abbey.

Huh. What was his response, if you don't mind my asking? It seems like he's ready to talk the ear off anyone who's willing to listen to him rant about his pet subjects.

Thanks for sharing, by the way.

He probably replied (because as you've noticed, he's talkative), but whatever he said is lost in the mists of time. The next email I have from him is in response to my asking if he was okay (something to do with a tumblr post), to which I got:

To: C. M. <necromommycon@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 5:50:08 PM
Subject: Re: As a newish acquaintance, I don't want to pry.

Thank you, that's very kind of you. I had an unfortunate discussion with a friend who has a very big crush on me, and she pushed the matter until I had to tell her that my feelings for her were only and only ever would be brotherly. That's never a good conversation to have, especially with someone who's already fragile and has issues with feeling unlovable.

Andy

By that time, anon, I was well and truly hooked, although I didn't yet have the perspective to see how carefully I'd been manipulated. I'd been scolded for tattling to Turi; forgiven; friended; confided in with that long email full of lies; and now I was being shown the "real" Andy: caring, compassionate, pursued by women. It's all painfully, embarrassingly obvious in hindsight that he thought I was an idiot; I'm just pleased to have been an idiot who knew how to screencap stuff sometimes.

I have to admit, this is fascinating for me in a dark sort of way, and it's the hardest part of the whole Andy business to wrap my head around. Andy's actions I feel like I more or less understand. What always escapes me is why other people are so willing to accept his lies.

For example, the stuff about Andy being a disembodied spirit or whatnot, and his "sister" Amy living in his head with him... you just decided it didn't really matter what the truth was? That's sort of what I gather from your response. Please forgive me if I'm wrong.

Did it bother you at all he essentially said he'd deny everything if called on his email, and threatened you with legal action? What was it about him that made you willing to accept that from him?

I'm sorry if this comes off as critical or harsh at all. I'm just trying to understand how Andy manages to pull off his manipulation. For what it's worth, I think it's very brave of you to share what happened.

No, don't worry, it doesn't sound any more harsh than I'd probably sound if I was hearing this from someone.

Basically, yes. I mean, I'd decided going in that he was mentally ill, so I more or less accepted "pathological fantasist" as part of who he was, and didn't bother worrying about it.

It DID annoy me to be threatened with legal action, but it was an empty threat (I mean, I knew there was no actual chance of this ever going to court). And he'd told me already (through a third party) that he didn't trust me, so if anything I thought it proved he felt threatened and was blustering out of fear. (Which I still think was the case. I mean, I think he throws around legal threats whenever he's feeling cornered.)

So to answer your last question: I put up with a lot because I felt sorry for him, and because he seemed kind (apart from the, you know, constant lying) and interesting.

I think the pattern our first interactions followed (scolding http://carlanime.tumblr.com/post/116292168220/carlanime-first-contact-in-which-i-am-told-how; forgiveness (http://carlanime.tumblr.com/post/116293061115/andy-scolding-and-forgiving-me-and-my-reply-this); overtures from Andy, Cfc, and others; revelations as a sign of inclusion) was more effective in getting me onside than I'd anticipated.

Brittany was no one's victim. She even refused to be Jason's, and for that she was murdered.

Of course, Andy. A woman murdered by her ex was "no victim".

It's stuff like that this reminds me what a wretched waste of air Andy is. Using Brittany's murder to shame you is the lowest of the low, and to claim that she was "no one's victim" when he knows damn well he had her fighting the undead for the lives of children is disgusting.

I also notice that Andy leaves out muddier facts, like the fact that Jason was actually granted a restraining order against Brittany, which tells you there was a lot more going on behind the scenes than we know. We'll never know for sure if Andy was behind the campaign of apparent legal harassment Brittany engaged in, but I would bet nearly anything that he was.

And of course, the biggest chunk of the email is all about what Andy did for Brittany, how much he improved her life, and what a stand-up guy he is.

Everything about that message is repulsive.

I also notice that Andy leaves out muddier facts, like the fact that Jason was actually granted a restraining order against Brittany, which tells you there was a lot more going on behind the scenes than we know.

Sure, but *what* it means is less clear. I mean, getting restraining orders against their victims to muddle the situation is a thing some abusers do so it doesn't necessarily mean Brittany or Andy were harassing Jason for example.

In my opinion, the harassment they were (probably) committing was extortion:

http://www.dailyrepublic.com/news/fairfield/hate-extortion-lies-underlie-fairfield-murder-suicide/

In the past, Quinn had made other, more serious accusations against Eisenberg. Those accusations came after she demanded that he pay her $195,000 back in April 2010, telling him in emails that if he didn’t pay up she would cry rape and claim he committed larceny and tax fraud.

“The actions taken if such a step should be required by your noncompliance with this sole and final offer of settlement will, if deemed applicable, extend to criminal charges including but not limited to grand theft/larceny, physical assault, sexual battery, kidnap and sexual assault,” Quinn wrote in one email.

Rape & kidnapping are obviously very serious crimes. So serious that I find it odd they would use rape & kidnapping charges as a tool to convince Eisenberg to pay them large sums of money. If Brittany wasn't intimidated enough to reject the idea of charges all together, it's hard to imagine why she wouldn't want to get a rapist and kidnapper behind bars, rather than use the threat to get $100,000.

That's money that, from my reading of the documents, Brittany felt she earned by giving her ex massages and cooking dinners for him:

Quinn claimed she held more than a dozen different job titles between February 2006 and June 2009 when she left their Venus Drive home. Each job was listed with an hourly billing rate. For example, Quinn claimed she wad worked 1,200 hours as a massage therapist for Eisenberg at $13.53 per hour for a total of more than $16,000. Her 4,380 hours as a personal chef at $19.82 per hour was worth more than $86,000, she claimed.

I don't want to attribute malice to Brittany here, necessarily. It seems very possible to me that Andy convinced Brittany she was abused when she wasn't (like Abbey), convinced her to send her ex legal threats (like Abbey), or perhaps Brittany was abused and Andy exaggerated her memories of the severity of that abuse (like Diamond).

Obviously Jason murdered Brittany, so that lends credence to the idea that he was previously abuse. But it doesn't prove that he was... or if he really was abusive, it doesn't mean he was guilty of all the things Brittany accused him of in that letter.

But Brittany and Eisenberg are both dead though, so we'll never know for sure.

Other notable things:

Eisenberg did not pay. Instead, he went to Fairfield police to report possible extortion.

Quinn later filed police reports with Fairfield police and with police in Napa and Sacramento. Fairfield police deemed Quinn’s claims of domestic violence as not credible.

Judge John Ellis did not block Quinn from the house but he did order her not to harass, annoy or threaten Eisenberg.

Of course, the police and judge could all have been wrong. They're not infallible and many are biased in some way. They are, however, professionals whose job it is to sniff out deception.

For anyone interested, I've dumped the bulk of the Livejournal messages I received (in the days following my post) in the Pit. I left out a couple from Cfc because they contain details about things Andy did for her, and I'm not interested in another round of arguments with her.

And now I need to go do something else. ANYTHING else.

Thank you for sharing all of that.

Turimel's message is way OTT and inappropriate in so many ways, but she's right that trying to put Abbey and Diamond back in touch with Andy and get them to forgive him would be the worst idea ever. The message from "Anne", though? Really sounds like Andy himself. I need to go look for their comments at FW, but in the meantime:

everyone has proven to be wrong about everyone else, including things as seemingly basic as your belief that A. was in it for the money and celebrities.

Turi is way off-base about a lot of things with Andy, but Abbey and Diamond were not wrong about him at all. And Andy used to really play up the fact that Turimel said he was using people to get money and celebrity attention; it was a useful smoke screen for his real motives.

However, while I'd like nothing more than to continue the collective healing, I have no intention of propigating wank or feeding anyone to the pitchfork mob.

"Anne" is inserting herself into an emotional situation that has nothing to do with her, by going straight to one of the key players. That is such an Andy thing to do. The "pitchfork mob" is also a metaphor of which he is very fond.

Do you, Abbey, or Cherie have any interest whatsoever in actually hearing from this person and trying to resolve anything with them, or would it entirely be "come here so we can eat you"?

This sets up not only Turimel, but Abbey and Diamond, as "bad guys" who are victimizing Andy and present a threat to him. Wow.

Would you be willing to respect their expressed gender identity?

All this "their" business is confusing, coming from a professed "gender studies psych specialist". Andy has identified as male for years.

Would you be willing to have at least the initial phases of the conversation in private and keep them private until/unless permission was granted to release them, or would every bit of everything have to be open to the public?

Not that it's unreasonable to ask for a level of privacy, but this puts Andy in control of the conversation. It gives him sole power to determine what (if anything) the rest of the world hears about it. It once again implies that he is a victim and needs to be protected, completely ignoring that he was Abbey and Diamond's abuser.

I think it's equally obvious that they need serious psychiatric help and that there are flickers of talent and even good in among all the disaster.

This was about the time that Andy was starting to circulate the "Severe Gender Disphoria leading to Dissociative Identity Disorder possibly comorbid with Borderline Personality Disorder on select aspects" claim. And of course this concerned "mental health professional" feels the need to say that he's talented and a good person despite all the lies and abuse, because that's totally what's important.

My hope is that if things could be resolved with you as they are being resolved with Abbey, I might be able to talk them into the idea that it is safe to step away from the layers of lies and get help. And then the danger that they do pose could be actually neutralized rather than helplessly shouted about. Obviously, though, the choice is yours. I await your reply.

If there was any doubt in my mind that "Anne" was Andy, this killed it. These last few sentences put the entire responsibility for "fixing" Andy on Turimel! They imply that the only way for him to "get better" (and thus, for the threat to vulnerable people to be neutralized) is for his victims to forgive him for everything. And if Turimel decides not to give them the "opportunity" to do so, whatever Andy does in the future is her fault! This is kind of amazing.

Also, lol at the Oirish pseudonym. Wow.

TB

DA Thank you so much, and I hope you go do something fun and/or self-caring.

Thank you for posting these.

Was that related to this post? (http://andythanfiction.tumblr.com/post/12881592821/being-right-has-never-felt-so-shitty)

TB

Yes. I emailed him in response to that to ask if he was okay.

...man, your filing skills are AMAZING. Thank you for finding that.

I just happened to see it the other day, actually, and was appalled. I had a pretty good idea of what it was about and this is how it read, to me, based on what I know of Andy's history with women:

I said I didn’t want to tell you [that I don't love you that way].

You said I would if I was your friend. [I have never truly been your friend.]

I said it would hurt you [because I've spent months making you emotionally dependent on me].

You said I would if I loved you. [I don't. I just needed you to love me.]

I said you couldn’t handle it [because so much of your self-worth is now wrapped up in my opinion of you].

You said you couldn’t handle not knowing. [But keeping you in a state of hopeful uncertainty is most profitable for me.]

I said you’d have a nervous breakdown [at which point I will push you even further away because your emotions are inconvenient for me].

You said you really, really needed to know. [I don't care about your needs.]

I said you already knew and that it wouldn’t be being a good friend to tell you [that all this time I've just been manipulating you].

You said you needed to hear it anyway. [And what the hell, maybe I can keep the attention coming for a while by "supporting you".]

I told you [in a way that downplayed my role in encouraging these feelings in you].

It hurt you. You can’t handle it. You’re having a nervous breakdown. [Which surely will not be helped by my vagueblogging about this.]

I told you [and now I'm making it all about me and my feelings].

TB

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