continued Thatfucker discussion

[anonniemouse]

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

Comments

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

the point is, a lot of people experience their gender in ways that don't seem logical or don't mesh with dictionary definitions (like, the point of the word 'cisgender' existing is so we can have a word to say instead of "normal" not to further delineate gender, imo, we don't need more of that).

And like, people tend to take Andy's crap apart by logic, which doesn't really work for a personal issue like this, I think.

like, the anon I was replying to wrote "but basically Andy identifies as cis but (apparently) still experiences horrid gender dysphoria, has publicly transitioned and was AFAB" and the implication is, this doesn't happen. It does though, people like this exist.

that was my point when I said that Andy (99% probably) uses his gender to obfuscate and garner sympathy, but at the same time, he is saying things that are more plausibly than most people think.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

the point is, a lot of people experience their gender in ways that don't seem logical or don't mesh with dictionary definitions (like, the point of the word 'cisgender' existing is so we can have a word to say instead of "normal" not to further delineate gender, imo, we don't need more of that).

I think a lot of people would disagree with the idea that 'cisgender' and 'normal' are basically interchangeable.

I've never gotten the impression that cisgender is supposed to be a gender in and of itself. It refers to the fact that someone's GATB and their current gender identity are the same.

And like, people tend to take Andy's crap apart by logic, which doesn't really work for a personal issue like this, I think.

I think it does. The problem is that it very quickly reveals that some people's identification is not based on logic or on the object reality they've experienced, but instead is driven by emotion (as the previous anon pointed out) -- and often very negative emotions, at that. Some people find this distressing.

like, the anon I was replying to wrote "but basically Andy identifies as cis but (apparently) still experiences horrid gender dysphoria, has publicly transitioned and was AFAB" and the implication is, this doesn't happen. It does though, people like this exist.

That wasn't the implication I got at all. It's like pointing the inconsistency of someone identifying as straight, but at the same time claiming they are exclusively sexually attracted to the same sex.

Obviously people like this exist. That's not the issue. The issue is that what they're claiming doesn't make any sense. It's an inherent contradiction.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

+1

As a trans guy, if people are claiming they're cis in order to feel like a more "normal" version of their gender (implication: a better or more real/true version than a trans person), that's damn near the definition of internalized transphobia.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

This. Like, if someone claims they've been religiously healed into heterosexually, I probably wouldn't argue with them about it, but the message they need isn't so much, "Yes, it's great you're straight now, you can be whatever you want!" but "You know, there's nothing wrong with gay, and it doesn't lower your value as a human being or make you any less of a man/woman."

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

... ugh, hetersexuality. I swear I can spell.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

SA

I think it does. The problem is that it very quickly reveals that some people's identification is not based on logic or on the object reality they've experienced, but instead is driven by emotion (as the previous anon pointed out) -- and often very negative emotions, at that. Some people find this distressing.

And before anyone gets confused, no, I do not put identifying as "male" or "female" in this category.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

"I think a lot of people would disagree with the idea that 'cisgender' and 'normal' are basically interchangeable."

that's... kind of the point? the word exists so that we don't have to use the word "normal" with all it's unpleasant implications when talking about general not-trans population. That's what I meant, perhaps I phrased it badly.

like look, just a bit of background - I engage in activism and spend a lot of energy getting trans people with dramatically different outlook on life and their transness to respect and talk to each other. It is possible that I am way too concilatorary.
But I just think it's crap to say someone's gender "doesn't make sense" because it does not follow some kind of internal logic. Like, does it ever? Gender is an internal experience. It is inherently emotional.

This does not make Andy more/less transphobic, he has proven himself such on many occasions - from creepy monologues about trans women and penises to implying trans dudes are not dudes.

But again, can we like, respect the history and width of trans identities? I really don't think that stops anyone from seeing Andy is full of shit.

(fyi - there are, for example, women who identify as lesbian even though they fuck all kinds of genders and even feel sexually attracted to all kinds of people - lgbt identities have complicated history, pretty much all of them)

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

like look, just a bit of background - I engage in activism and spend a lot of energy getting trans people with dramatically different outlook on life and their transness to respect and talk to each other. It is possible that I am way too concilatorary.

I do as well. I'm also trans. Are you? Just out of curiosity.

But I just think it's crap to say someone's gender "doesn't make sense" because it does not follow some kind of internal logic. Like, does it ever? Gender is an internal experience. It is inherently emotional.

Cisgender and transgender are not genders.

A person who transitioned from their gender assigned at birth to another gender stands before you and claims, "My gender assigned at birth aligns with my current gender." THAT is what people are claiming when they say they are cis in this context. This is the contradiction I'm speaking of, not the subject experience of being male or female.

But again, can we like, respect the history and width of trans identities?

I respect and acknowledge people's right to identity how they choose. I will not always agree with that identification though, especially when we still in an age of conversion therapy and various internalized phobias.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

trans&genderqueer and like, I get endless crap from like, various tru-trans communities, but I would still rather they have a place to say they are cis (maybe it's stockholm syndrome lol)

"Cisgender and transgender are not genders." not by itself surely, but otherwise I don't get what you are getting at

"A person who transitioned from their gender assigned at birth to another gender stands before you and claims, "My gender assigned at birth aligns with my current gender." THAT is what people are claiming when they say they are cis in this context. This is the contradiction I'm speaking of, not the subject experience of being male or female."

I disagree. I don't think this is something people are trying to disprove here. Though it is true Andy has lied in these particular ways (the whole pseuicide, then evil twin business, etc) he also says other crap that is not as easily deconstructed.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

It does though, people like this exist.

at the same time, he is saying things that are more plausibly than most people think.

All of this is irrelevant, because Andy is not saying those things for the same, *honest* reasons other people do. He always does it to manipulate people.

To take a much simpler example: if Andy told you that the sky is blue and the sun is shining, when in fact there's a thunderstorm going on, it would be completely irrelevant to point out that the sky is often blue and the sun often shines. Yes, those things happen, but they are not happening right now when Andy is telling you that they are.

So the fact that Andy tells things which happen to be honestly true for some people under certain circumstances is in itself irrelevant. What matters is what his reasons for saying those things are. And as it happens, his reasons are never good and honest ones.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

+1

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I do not think I have said the reasons are unimportant? Like, let's talk about them (trans discussions get wanky really fast, as lbr, this one has already gotten)

I was reacting to the fact that a lot of people are attacking the statement "sky's blue" itself

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

trans discussions get wanky really fast, as lbr, this one has already gotten

I don't see any wank?

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

ok, maybe I'm just overreacting :< I was worried this would get labeled as wank, but for me this stuff is pretty important tbh

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I think I see what you mean, but I see two problems with it:

1. All those discussions of whether the sky is blue were taking place within the specific context of examining Andy Blake's words. You can't take this context out of the discussions, because the topic of the discussions is Andy Blake himself.

2. The statements being "attacked" are not akin to "the sky is blue", quite the contrary. They are akin to someone saying "the sky is pink" when it is clearly blue to 99.99% of the rest of the population. I can accept that they might have a very good reason to say that, but unless their explanation makes sense, I have no obligation to accept it. Words have defined meanings, and if a trans person is going to say that they are cis, for example, then they better have a more convincing explanation for it than just, say, "I feel this way". Because someone can feel all they want that the sky is pink, but that doesn't change the FACT that it is blue. And if they really see it as pink, then there's something not functioning properly either in their eyes or their brain, and indulding their mistaken impression is not going to help them in the long term.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

Sky is pink at sunset. Just saying.

Trans community is full of special snowflakes. If Andy just wanted attention and not to torment people then he might be all over tumblr with his snowflake ID. Not that snowflakes aren't real, but there's definitely a temptation there for an attention seeking personality. But he needs to torture people so he lies all the frigging time. Everyone can see from this outside this guy has a trans history as much as he denies it for his own needs (possible? who knows?) or for his practical needs at the moment (to deny he was the person who did those things).

I am very sympathetic to a trans person who calls themselves cis. We are born with this condition but both the condition and society make our lives hell. However, I don't think that picking apart Andy Blake's lies about his past should be off the table. He's hurt too many people. He has deliberately tried to convince people he was a cis guy to try to make them believe that Amy Player couldn't possibly be him. That's a whole other ball of wax from psychologically giving in to the transphobia and creating a fantasy life where you're cis. Who knows, he may do this as well! But nobody knows because he's an NPD who lies all the time and doesn't treat people like people.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I think discussions of Andy's gender identity are legitimately dicey. Does he use his gender, as well as the politics around gender identity, to manipulate people? Absolutely. But does he also have legitimate issues around gender? Sure seems that way to me. In fact, the issues he seems to have are frankly, unsurprising to me. I find it relatively easy to empathize with most of what he says about his gender and to understand quite a bit of his behaviors around gender. The anon above is right that he shouldn't be extended as much benefit of the doubt, but I share your concerns that people pick apart his gender in ways that would be seriously uncool were he anyone else. I don't know how you mediate those two concerns. The fact that Andy is both dealing with a sensitive issue and using that sensitive issue to his advantage means that we probably can't have this discussion without stepping on some toes.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

I share your concerns that people pick apart his gender in ways that would be seriously uncool were he anyone else. I don't know how you mediate those two concerns.

The answer is in the question. Andy isn't "anyone else", and because he has used gender identity/claims of rape and sexual abuse/claims about mental illness to hurt and abuse other people -- and just as importantly, to hide the fact that he has hurt and abused people -- he doesn't automatically get the benefit of the doubt anymore. Peter has cried wolf too many times, and other people's safety is at stake.

The fact that Andy is both dealing with a sensitive issue and using that sensitive issue to his advantage means that we probably can't have this discussion without stepping on some toes.

Andy has used his gender identity to cover up his past and his abuse of others. When criminals use a car to drive drunk (for example) they may lose their license because they've put other people in danger. To take away the license of someone who had committed no crime (or a crime unrelated to driving) would be a violation of their rights. That doesn't mean taking away someone's license is a violation of the rights in every case ever, like -- for example -- when it's been proven they've used it to place others at risk.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

My concerns are not exactly with Andy, tbh. It's like - it seems clear that Andy deserves whatever comes to him, but anon-memes and watchdog blogs don't exist in a vacuum. These standards of discussion will be applied more broadly and (sooner or later) to someone who just does not deserve this crap

which is why I think it's important to think about how we talk about gender now, with Andy, even though he really does not deserve this much consideration

((and I do actually think he forfitted some some rights that trans people have - like, for example, trans people should have the right to not have their old genders-assigned-at-birth identities linked with their new identities. But I do not think Andy has this right, simply because he has abused people under old identities, so like I do not think he should be treated as Just Another Trans Guy))

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

If anyone tries to apply the same standard of discussion to a non-abusive trans person, then remind THEM that there's no legitimate reason to do so.

Discussions about Andy don't happen in a vacuum, but they DO happen within a very specific context, and they should never be stripped of that context.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

This is mostly what I meant. The way people talk about Andy's gender isn't limited to Andy, but will bleed through to (and is reflective of) larger discussions. I don't mean to imply that anyone should have sympathy for Andy or let him get away with the things he's done, it's just that I see people accusing him of bad faith for doing things that are not uncommon and it gives me pause.

The majority position here seems to be that whatever happens in the future in unrelated discussions is of less concern than shedding light on what Andy's done--fair enough. But I also think it's worth pointing out when problematic things are being said. Andy has some serious internalized transphobia--so do lots of people. It seems to me that there's a fine line between saying 'Andy is a bad person and has used his gender identity in these ways' and 'Andy is a bad trans man and let me explain to you how trans men should be.' I see the same thing in discussion of his claimed mental illness(es) and, while it gives me pause, it's also a useful discussion to have. In part because it raises awareness about the realities of living with psychotic episodes and the like, whereas Andy's been obfuscating for years. I would hope that discussions about trans identities here do something similar, rather than reinforcing any sort of standardized narrative.

All that said, I understand why people here react negatively to that. Andy and his followers have used SJW concerns to shut down discussions and I can see how my statement would sound similar. I really have no desire to shut down discussions about Andy and am glad this community has a Gloves Off post. It's just something that I've noticed myself feeling uncomfortable about now that FFA's restrictive discussion rules are off the table.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

I see people accusing him of bad faith for doing things that are not uncommon and it gives me pause.

You have to consider what his motives are for "doing things that are not uncommon". I assume you're referring to him lying about his past and claiming to be cis.

As another anon pointed out, Andy's reasons for doing these things are not the same as those of other trans people, who just want to live their lives in ways that are suitable to them. Even Andy has admitted this:

http://andythanfiction.tumblr.com/post/113659970612/winjennster-just-told-everyone-you-blamed-your

When I was first confronted about the stuff about my past online, I panicked. I had a group of friends that I valued hugely and who only knew me as Andy, and I felt like I would rather shove hot coals up my nostrils than have them know I was AFAB, much less the stuff I’d done. I still loathed myself for the former and hadn’t even begun to forgive myself for the latter, and I felt like if they knew, they’d be disgusted by me on multiple levels and walk away. So as I said, I panicked and I told a stupid, ridiculous lie to try to make it go away.

There you have it. Andy threw his own sister under the bus not primarily because he wanted to hide the fact that he was AFAB, but because of "the stuff I'd done".

Frankly, even if this weren't the case, Andy has lost the right to separate his old identity from his new one. He began abusing people when he still identified as female, and continued to do so after transitioning to a male identity. A dangerous abuser's right to privacy must be trumped by the right of potential victims to be warned.

I've seen a few posts like yours where people claim to be uncomfortable about this conversation but seem unable to articulate why, aside from concerns that something offensive might be said about all trans people at some undetermined point in the future.

Let's suppose for a moment that you're right and someone pulls a Turimel here. What do you think would happen? I'm going to guess that they would immediately be shut down by anons and frozen by the mods. At the very least, they would be moved into Gloves Off so people bothered by such comments wouldn't have to see them. And again, the comments would have to be pretty mild to not be frozen outright.

This comm has literally been designed to protect people from comments that aren't even necessarily offensive, but may be triggering for them. I'm not sure what else you can ask for. The absolute worst I've seen here is a few intracommunity disagreements about about trans issues, but those were handled respectfully unless concern trolling was involved, and the latest one never even made it Gloves Off it was so civil.

I'm not sure what else you can ask for, aside from those discussions to not happen at all, which you say you don't want.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

right, right!
all in all, I feel like there is space to discuss these concerns in this meme, so that's great and it's not like this is a simple thing people agree on (even people interested in this stuff - I actually would super like to discuss Andy with local human rights activists and what they think is a good way to write about a person like him?)

I hate to bring up Aja's article, but it strikes me as a good example of pussyfooting around Andy's gender way too much - like not even mentioning his old identities in full name. You can definitely go too far in this direction as well.

But mostly I think people are angry at him, and I think that sometimes causes people to grasp at things that are not ok. As you have said, grasping at things that are common practices among trans people.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

I think you are absolutely right and the US legal system agrees with you. The first step you must take before applying for a legal name change is a criminal background check. There are people who change their name to avoid creditors--and much worse.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

You're literally making a mountain out of a molehill, just like Andy does.

Has any of Andy's critics, besides Turimel, ever denied that he's male? NO. This one is extremely clear and simple: everyone agrees that he's male.

Was Andy born with a male body? NO. This one is equally clear and simple: he was born with a female body, AND presented and lived as female for give-or-take 20 years.

The ONLY reason any discussion around Andy's gender turn dicey is because he adamantly denied this second fact for years IN ORDER TO shift responsibility for his past abuse onto other people, including his RL sister.

The solution to this is simple: we only need to stick to the FACTS. Andy Blake is a man who was born with a female body, presented as a girl for about 20 years, and started abusing people back when he was female-presenting, which is why his AFAB status needs to remain public. There! Clear, simple, and NOT stepping on the toes of non-abusive trans people who want to keep their birth status secret. No need to get into any kind of wank ever again.