continued Thatfucker discussion

[anonniemouse]

Since we've been kicked off FFA for the week, please feel free to continue the anon discussion here. Apologies if this is a big flop - I've never made a DW community before!

The rules are vaguely the same as they are over on FFA. Please refrain from being too much of an asshole, making personal attacks, posting identifying information or engaging in transfail.

ETA: If there's information you'd like to see archived (journal/blog posts related to Andy, etc.), please dump it here and link to it from the main post for discussing.

Comments

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

I'm trans and I have dissociative symptoms/episodes that sometime interfere with my dysphoria, but never to the extent of not seeing my actual physical body. I'm not saying that this is impossible, I'm just not seeing how someone could not see their body for years, which is what Andy's trying to say here.

Dysphoria is of course very personal experience, but isn't Andrew Blake persona supposed to be cis and thus not feel dysphoria? Yeah, this whole argument hurts my brain. Which is probably what Andy is aiming at.

Obviously not all trans men have so called female body parts though. I'm not interested in speculating what Andy looks naked bc ew, gross and inappropriate, but I think people seem to forget this often.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

Obviously not all trans men have so called female body parts though.

Maybe anon is uneducated but I really don't understand what you mean by this. Do you mean post-surgical trans men?

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Yup, I was mostly thinking about post-op men, though there are also intersex trans men. But testosterone alone modifies one's body, making sex characteristics less normative.

This really has nothing to do with Andy though, but it always bothers me a little bit to see people making assumptions about trans bodies. A little pet peeve of mine, I guess.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

But testosterone alone modifies one's body, making sex characteristics less normative.

Trans nonny is going to be blunt for the confused. This isn't in regard to Andy specifically, just general info:

WARNING FOR POSSIBLE TMI

T does not make your breasts disappear, or your lower bits unidentifiable as a vulva. It makes your clit larger, sometimes quite a bit larger, but it doesn't change it so much you'd ever mistake it for a cis penis, nor does it ever give you a set of balls.

Some trans people may conceptualize their genital structures as their dick, their junk, etc. This isn't what Andy does. Andy has claimed in the past to have had a cis/AMAB penis, and as part of his abuse of Abbey, made a point of encouraging her to discuss it publicly in order to convince people he was not Amy Player/VictoriaBitter, who at that point was a missing person being desperately searched for by her parents.

Andy is full of shit: news at 11.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

There's some good discussion about this in gloves off, but basically Andy identifies as cis but (apparently) still experiences horrid gender dysphoria, has publicly transitioned and was AFAB.

I'll add that Andy has claimed in the past that Andrew Blake started out as an alter consciousness in female-identified "Amy's" mind, ie, a product of psychosis. Whom "Amy" demanded the truth never, ever be mentioned to, because althought "she" was aware of him, he was not aware of her, or that he was in an AFAB body. But that individual has gotten treatment for their supposed mental illness and is still Andrew Blake.

If all this makes your head hurts, it's not just you. Andy lies so much his lies form the mental equivalent of a tangled ball of yarn.

Personally, I think the truth is:

-Andy is trans (duh)
-Andy experiences gender dysphoria
-Andy is not and has never had a true psychotic break from reality
-Andrew Blake and Amy Player are the same person/consciousness
-Andy claimed otherwise in order to have people never bring up his past to him, so he'd never have to take accountability for it

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

I just checked the thread in gloves off, and the nonnie there managed to point out the flaws in Andy's "I'm cis even though I'm not!" logic, so my head hurts a little bit less now.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

the thing about Andy is, that whether through sheer luck or deliberation, he stumbled on something that is actually an issue among trans people

There are trans people who, after undergoing transition (whatever that may mean for them - usually hormones and genital reconstructive surgery) consider themselves no longer trans. I don't mean they go full stealth or say this for safety. I mean they will tell you "I was trans, I got better"(yeah, mostly these ppl subscribe to very medical models of trasness)(I mean, theoretically that would mean they no longer experience disphoria, but like, actually life is not as simple as that)

And like, look, I am angry when people say ~trans people are trans~! ~You don't get to say what you are!~ Because in general? Yeah, you do! Trans community is vast and large swaths of it are not visible, especially if you socialize primarily through web (some people are just *not* online).

Of course, I also think Andy is a liar and he is using the complicated nature of gender identity to obfscute. everything.

But like. Stop saying (the general you, not you sepcifically, nonny) "never in the history of ever" because with a community like this? Yeah, I guarantee you someone thinks/does that.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

"Never in the history of ever" what? That some people who used to identify as trans start to identify as cis because they view it as a medical condition that was resolved? Who here has claimed that hasn't happened?

I mean, personally I still don't see how they would qualify as cis as it's usually defined:

Cisgender and cissexual (often abbreviated to simply cis) describe related types of gender identity where individuals' experiences of their own gender match the sex they were assigned at birth.

All of which is kind of irrelevant, because if I don't think someone's identification makes sense, that's where it ends in 99% of cases. There's no real reason for me to speculate about it or publicize it, because whether I agree or not, individual people deserve privacy.

Unless, like Andy, they are abusive predators who are known to have used their identification to mask their past abusive behavior. Not his identity as male, mind you, but as a cis man specifically who could not be responsible for VB's abuses, because that was all his sister. His evil twin sister, his real sister, whichever was more convenient.

If I was being generous to Andy, I'd consider him the equivalent of a gay man who claims he's now straight because of the saving love of Jesus or conversation therapy. In other words, I think he identifies that way because of internalized ___phobia and shame. If I'm less generous, I'd say he identifies as cis because it allows him to run his game better.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

the point is, a lot of people experience their gender in ways that don't seem logical or don't mesh with dictionary definitions (like, the point of the word 'cisgender' existing is so we can have a word to say instead of "normal" not to further delineate gender, imo, we don't need more of that).

And like, people tend to take Andy's crap apart by logic, which doesn't really work for a personal issue like this, I think.

like, the anon I was replying to wrote "but basically Andy identifies as cis but (apparently) still experiences horrid gender dysphoria, has publicly transitioned and was AFAB" and the implication is, this doesn't happen. It does though, people like this exist.

that was my point when I said that Andy (99% probably) uses his gender to obfuscate and garner sympathy, but at the same time, he is saying things that are more plausibly than most people think.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

the point is, a lot of people experience their gender in ways that don't seem logical or don't mesh with dictionary definitions (like, the point of the word 'cisgender' existing is so we can have a word to say instead of "normal" not to further delineate gender, imo, we don't need more of that).

I think a lot of people would disagree with the idea that 'cisgender' and 'normal' are basically interchangeable.

I've never gotten the impression that cisgender is supposed to be a gender in and of itself. It refers to the fact that someone's GATB and their current gender identity are the same.

And like, people tend to take Andy's crap apart by logic, which doesn't really work for a personal issue like this, I think.

I think it does. The problem is that it very quickly reveals that some people's identification is not based on logic or on the object reality they've experienced, but instead is driven by emotion (as the previous anon pointed out) -- and often very negative emotions, at that. Some people find this distressing.

like, the anon I was replying to wrote "but basically Andy identifies as cis but (apparently) still experiences horrid gender dysphoria, has publicly transitioned and was AFAB" and the implication is, this doesn't happen. It does though, people like this exist.

That wasn't the implication I got at all. It's like pointing the inconsistency of someone identifying as straight, but at the same time claiming they are exclusively sexually attracted to the same sex.

Obviously people like this exist. That's not the issue. The issue is that what they're claiming doesn't make any sense. It's an inherent contradiction.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

+1

As a trans guy, if people are claiming they're cis in order to feel like a more "normal" version of their gender (implication: a better or more real/true version than a trans person), that's damn near the definition of internalized transphobia.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

This. Like, if someone claims they've been religiously healed into heterosexually, I probably wouldn't argue with them about it, but the message they need isn't so much, "Yes, it's great you're straight now, you can be whatever you want!" but "You know, there's nothing wrong with gay, and it doesn't lower your value as a human being or make you any less of a man/woman."

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

SA

I think it does. The problem is that it very quickly reveals that some people's identification is not based on logic or on the object reality they've experienced, but instead is driven by emotion (as the previous anon pointed out) -- and often very negative emotions, at that. Some people find this distressing.

And before anyone gets confused, no, I do not put identifying as "male" or "female" in this category.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

"I think a lot of people would disagree with the idea that 'cisgender' and 'normal' are basically interchangeable."

that's... kind of the point? the word exists so that we don't have to use the word "normal" with all it's unpleasant implications when talking about general not-trans population. That's what I meant, perhaps I phrased it badly.

like look, just a bit of background - I engage in activism and spend a lot of energy getting trans people with dramatically different outlook on life and their transness to respect and talk to each other. It is possible that I am way too concilatorary.
But I just think it's crap to say someone's gender "doesn't make sense" because it does not follow some kind of internal logic. Like, does it ever? Gender is an internal experience. It is inherently emotional.

This does not make Andy more/less transphobic, he has proven himself such on many occasions - from creepy monologues about trans women and penises to implying trans dudes are not dudes.

But again, can we like, respect the history and width of trans identities? I really don't think that stops anyone from seeing Andy is full of shit.

(fyi - there are, for example, women who identify as lesbian even though they fuck all kinds of genders and even feel sexually attracted to all kinds of people - lgbt identities have complicated history, pretty much all of them)

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

It does though, people like this exist.

at the same time, he is saying things that are more plausibly than most people think.

All of this is irrelevant, because Andy is not saying those things for the same, *honest* reasons other people do. He always does it to manipulate people.

To take a much simpler example: if Andy told you that the sky is blue and the sun is shining, when in fact there's a thunderstorm going on, it would be completely irrelevant to point out that the sky is often blue and the sun often shines. Yes, those things happen, but they are not happening right now when Andy is telling you that they are.

So the fact that Andy tells things which happen to be honestly true for some people under certain circumstances is in itself irrelevant. What matters is what his reasons for saying those things are. And as it happens, his reasons are never good and honest ones.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

+1

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I do not think I have said the reasons are unimportant? Like, let's talk about them (trans discussions get wanky really fast, as lbr, this one has already gotten)

I was reacting to the fact that a lot of people are attacking the statement "sky's blue" itself

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I think discussions of Andy's gender identity are legitimately dicey. Does he use his gender, as well as the politics around gender identity, to manipulate people? Absolutely. But does he also have legitimate issues around gender? Sure seems that way to me. In fact, the issues he seems to have are frankly, unsurprising to me. I find it relatively easy to empathize with most of what he says about his gender and to understand quite a bit of his behaviors around gender. The anon above is right that he shouldn't be extended as much benefit of the doubt, but I share your concerns that people pick apart his gender in ways that would be seriously uncool were he anyone else. I don't know how you mediate those two concerns. The fact that Andy is both dealing with a sensitive issue and using that sensitive issue to his advantage means that we probably can't have this discussion without stepping on some toes.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

I share your concerns that people pick apart his gender in ways that would be seriously uncool were he anyone else. I don't know how you mediate those two concerns.

The answer is in the question. Andy isn't "anyone else", and because he has used gender identity/claims of rape and sexual abuse/claims about mental illness to hurt and abuse other people -- and just as importantly, to hide the fact that he has hurt and abused people -- he doesn't automatically get the benefit of the doubt anymore. Peter has cried wolf too many times, and other people's safety is at stake.

The fact that Andy is both dealing with a sensitive issue and using that sensitive issue to his advantage means that we probably can't have this discussion without stepping on some toes.

Andy has used his gender identity to cover up his past and his abuse of others. When criminals use a car to drive drunk (for example) they may lose their license because they've put other people in danger. To take away the license of someone who had committed no crime (or a crime unrelated to driving) would be a violation of their rights. That doesn't mean taking away someone's license is a violation of the rights in every case ever, like -- for example -- when it's been proven they've used it to place others at risk.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

My concerns are not exactly with Andy, tbh. It's like - it seems clear that Andy deserves whatever comes to him, but anon-memes and watchdog blogs don't exist in a vacuum. These standards of discussion will be applied more broadly and (sooner or later) to someone who just does not deserve this crap

which is why I think it's important to think about how we talk about gender now, with Andy, even though he really does not deserve this much consideration

((and I do actually think he forfitted some some rights that trans people have - like, for example, trans people should have the right to not have their old genders-assigned-at-birth identities linked with their new identities. But I do not think Andy has this right, simply because he has abused people under old identities, so like I do not think he should be treated as Just Another Trans Guy))

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

You're literally making a mountain out of a molehill, just like Andy does.

Has any of Andy's critics, besides Turimel, ever denied that he's male? NO. This one is extremely clear and simple: everyone agrees that he's male.

Was Andy born with a male body? NO. This one is equally clear and simple: he was born with a female body, AND presented and lived as female for give-or-take 20 years.

The ONLY reason any discussion around Andy's gender turn dicey is because he adamantly denied this second fact for years IN ORDER TO shift responsibility for his past abuse onto other people, including his RL sister.

The solution to this is simple: we only need to stick to the FACTS. Andy Blake is a man who was born with a female body, presented as a girl for about 20 years, and started abusing people back when he was female-presenting, which is why his AFAB status needs to remain public. There! Clear, simple, and NOT stepping on the toes of non-abusive trans people who want to keep their birth status secret. No need to get into any kind of wank ever again.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I'm trans, and in my discussions with many people who transitioned, I have indeed come accross some of them who now consider themselves cis, after having had all the hormonal and surgical treatments, so that their body is as perfect a copy of what it should have been as possible. I don't necessarily understand their reasoning, or agree with it when I understand it, but I can usually respect it.

The only times when I can't respect it is when it is insulting to people who still consider themselves trans. And this happens to be the case with Andy Blake.

When he says that he didn't want to admit that he had transitioned because he didn't want people to consider him "not quite a man", he's insulting trans men. When he says he didn't want to risk having people holding "his real gender" as a threat against him, he's insulting trans people. When he says that he feels good around cis men but not around trans men, he's implying that he can always detect who is trans and who is cis, that trans men can never fully pass for cis men, that trans men can never fully be men like any others, and that's insulting towards trans men.

The day he can explain why he identifies as cis without insulting trans people in the process, I'll respect his self-ID as cis, even if it makes no logical sense considering he hasn't had genital surgery, so his bodily sex is definitely not aligned with his gender, which by definition makes him trans, but whatever. In the meantime, I'll call it as I see it: internalized transphobia, which isn't surprising considering how deeply and horribly misogynistic he is.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe this is out of topic, but are there really lots of trans people who after transition identify as cis?

I myself am trans and I do know trans people who rarely use the trans prefix when talking about their gender and some of them leave the community entirely after transitioning, but I've never heard any of them to identify as cis. I mean, you can feel that the word trans doesn't describe you anymore without saying you're cis. Even cis people rarely use the word cis to describe themselves, so I find it a bit curious if post-transition people actively go around calling themselves cis.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that they "actively go around calling themselves cis". The occurrences I was referring to all took place within trans circles, while having discussions with trans people. Outside of those circles, they don't refer to themselves as neither cis nor trans, as there's no need for it.

This is only my personal experience, though. Maybe other people have seen different things.

Re: DIscussion of Facebook messages: Carlanime/Necromommycon and Andy

[(Anonymous)]

+1